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Towards a global cyber institute – Part 2.


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#26 Christopher Paris

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 05:27 PM

Allan

Did you approach ISO?

I would have thought that Roger Frost - editor of  ISO Management  Systems would have been up for allowing you freedom of speech. He was positively enthusiatic about helping me publish an article claiming that ISO 9000 aren't really standards at all!



It's been my experience that Frost is enthusiastic to publish controversial articles when they drive circulation -- no fault there -- but less likely if the controvery points out ISO's own imbedded problems with any kind of clarity. He is certaily NOT a standards-bearer of free speech; if anything, the antithesis thereof.
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#27 Christopher Paris

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 06:26 PM

Good thread, and great idea. Thanks to Jim Wade for referring me here. I will promote the link on my site.

A little information which may be useful (or not) on ASQ:

In 2003, it reported "approximately 145,000 members."

On Jan 1, 2005, all members of the Quality Society of Australasia (QSA) were transitioned to ASQ, adding to the ASQ rolls literally overnight. This transition occurred without member consent or notification (until after the fact.) What we don't know: how many members were in QSA during the transfer, and how many will opt out of ASQ as a result.

In 2003, ASQ was operating at a $1.7M US loss (~$37.2 revenue - ~$38.9M expenses.) There are no other publicly available records available at this time.

ASQ owns both ANAB and RABQSA, and ASQ Exec Paul Borawski is on the boards of both, although "secretly" (his name does not appear in the public rolls). This raises questions about legitimacy of various accreditations of ANAB and RABQSA, all of which are being investigated. Our company has already filed two official complaints against RABQSA, one of which is re: conflicts of interest and failure to disclose relationships.

ASQ's official organ, Quality Progress, will not run articles or news pieces on such investigations or complaints because they risk the organization's reputation. Quality Progress and other unrelated magazines will not run these news pieces either because ASQ and related bodies are advertisers. Quality Systems Update will run them sometimes, but QSU has recently entered into partnerships with ANAB and other organizations, so this is likely to stop. For my article on "Where Are Our Industry's Quality Journalists?" click here:

http://www.oxebridge...news.asp?ID=264

RABQSA, an ASQ subsidiary, is running at an almost insignificant net profit and is undergoing a significant management restructuring as a result. The organization is far under target, perhaps as much as half depending on how the figures are analyzed. In my opinion, the management restructuring will have little affect, since it's just a shuffling of the existing bodies.

Before the RAB/QSA merger, RAB had 3500 certified persons, QSA had 3300. This means RABQSA began with a total of 6800 certified persons.

As we see how the various issues and complaints re: RABQSA and ANAB fall out, this may thus affect ASQ, who manages both. There is also someone looking into tax filings by ASQ and whether they violated US tax law, but I don't know much about this (I am not an attorney.) Supposedly, ASQ has failed to report RABQSA and ANAB as member bodies, or maybe it's vice versa. I can't imagine that ASQ would make that kind of mistake, so I won't believe it until I see subpoenas going around.

ASQ is aggressively attempting to internationalize, in order to expand member rolls, and (by obvious extension) dues, certifications and related product sales. This is most prevalent in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and India. Work is underway to do so in China and other Asian nations. There seems little effort to go after the IQA in Europe, but I wouldn't doubt that someone in ASQ is thinking about a merger.

As for Mr. Sayle's idea, it's a good one. Jim Wade's caveats are worthwhile, too, but need more discussion to flesh out the details. The idea of a "quality" profession *should* be passe. Since we are not there yet, it becomes the role of the proposed GCBI to do this, one imagines. You cannot expect the current ASQ or IQA to think this way, as it will be counter to the ambitions of both the organizations and their leadership. There are millions and millions of dollars/pounds being exchanged here, and that means power and influence. In the US, ASQ is accredited by ANSI, for example, and ANSI operates under US government blessing. Poking a finger in the eye of RABQSA pokes ASQ by association, then ANSI then the US government. One has to have particularly sturdy fingers.


Edited by Christopher Paris, 11 July 2005 - 06:29 PM.

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#28 Simon

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 09:43 PM

It would be nice to think ethical behaviour was the prevailing trait of successful businesses. Unfortunately in business (as in most walks of life) a certain degree of bedfellowing appears to be a prerequisite for winning.

Why should the quality business be any different?

A great post to start with, thanks for the interesting expose.

It wasn't me your honour it was that Christopher Paris that done it. :whistle:

Regards,
Simon


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#29 Jim Wade

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 10:51 AM

Allan - or anyone...

What happened to the Global Cyber Institute idea?

Is it being debated anywhere but here at Saferpak?


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#30 Simon

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 03:00 PM

What happened to the Global Cyber Institute idea?

Hi Jim,

I'm not sure if it's been put on the backburner or ditched completely, but nothings happening anyway. The reason nothing happened is because there wasn't nearly enough interest either from potential members or volunteers to set the site up. As a web site owner yourself you know how difficult it is to get a web site off the ground, there's the laborious job of designing the site and then the hard work starts promoting the site and attracting visitors that may become members. It would have meant a truck load of work and without wide-scale support it patently wasn't worth investing the time, energy and money that would have been required. For me anyway.

Is it being debated anywhere but here at Saferpak?

Possibly behind closed doors at the IQA and ASQ, but nowhere else I know of. It was being discussed at the C*#! until the puppet master pulled the plug.

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Simon
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#31 Jim Wade

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 10:43 AM

It was being discussed at the C*#! until the puppet master pulled the plug.


Does anyone have any idea why management at the C*#! (clue: rhymes with Hove) blanked any discussion of Allan's ideas?
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#32 M Greenaway

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 11:14 AM

Because they are a bunch of C#@t's (Clue:rhymes with stunts) ??


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#33 Simon

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 06:20 PM

Does anyone have any idea why management at the C*#! (clue: rhymes with Hove) blanked any discussion of Allan's ideas?


There was plenty of discussion and interest at the C*#! on part 1 of Allan's article; we cooperated with them on the timing of publication of the 2nd article. I had links to the C*#! from the article and they placed a link to SaferPak in their links sidebar. All of a sudden they closed the thread on article part 2 and removed the links to here. The reason given to Allan by the owner of the C*#! was that he had put a copyright mark on the article. However, they had published several of Allan's articles previously with a copyright mark. I had no direct contact with them. Whether this was none of, part of, or the whole reason for pulling the plug who knows? Guessing the reasons otherwise is interesting but futile. :beam:

:off_topic:
The forums software has a swear filter; in the admin panel you can set a list of bad words along with their replacements which are automagically inserted into a post when an offensive word is used. Words such as the C*#!, the C*#!! C*#! and the C*#! are obviously in the list.

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Simon
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#34 Simon

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 05:11 PM

:off_topic:
The forums software has a swear filter; in the admin panel you can set a list of bad words along with their replacements which are automagically inserted into a post when an offensive word is used.  Words such as the C*#!, the C*#!! C*#! and the C*#! are obviously in the list.

Oh it doesn't work. :uhm:
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#35 Wallace Tait

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 07:09 PM

Hi Simon and the group,
I haven't been around for a while due to some health issues. All better now though.

I feel compeled to make comments regarding the cyber institute fiasco between the C*#!! C*#! and SAFERPAK.

There's obviously bad blood between these two bodies and, I am definately not one to hold back while seeing the controversy, Allan J Sayle's proposals have intentionally caused. I'm a proud member of both bodies.

First, I want to say, I have a high degree of respect for Mr Sayle and his proposals. On the surface it seemed to be an excellent idea. The idea was to challenge the establishment regarding what is in existence today relating to Business and educational offerings at a global level.
There's no need to go deeper than that, this forum has discussed this issue to death, as has been at the C*#!.

I was (past tense) a great admirer of Mr Sayle's Task Element Approach (AKA The process approach). I mapped out the information regarding, his approach found within his excellent book titled Management audits.
There's no doubt that Allan J Sayle is responsible for (in part) the genesis of the proces approach now common to the ISO benchmark of 9004. Allan's works have also influenced the manner and format in which, I personally approach business and systems thinking at all levels. The task elements have served me very well indeed and, I encourage all who are intrigued by Allan J Sayle's approach to (at the very least) get a hold of his publication mentioned.

My departure from Allan's cyber proposal was unfortunate yet, in retrospect, I am pleased with my decision to depart form being involved with the cyber proposal.
The fact that Mr Sayle had indeed rightly so enforced his copyright on his work was the nail in the coffin and, this move made it clear to the majority of adherents at that time, there was some kind of power struggle in the making.
It came down to personalities enforcing their particular views and controls on something that looked so good and enticing on paper and, which would clearly become just as the established institutions of this day, full of beurocracy and in-fighting.
Maybe it's time to move on, I don't read any comments comming from Mr. Sayle at all regarding the further discussions and comments regarding the vailidity of the C*#! or Saferpak positions relating to good relations and common grounds.
As a side bar to my involvement within the C*#! and Saferpak, I continue to lurk for the most part. My involvement with quality has diminished (Than you God) and, I have moved on to other and more challenging potentials.
Keep up the good work at this site Simon and, I remain to be a fervent adherent to both the C*#! and Saferpak, after all, we actually have our cyber institute within both of these great bodies.
All the best.
Wallace Tait
Ontario, Canada


Edited by Wallace Tait, 04 September 2005 - 11:50 PM.

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#36 Simon

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 09:02 PM

I haven't been around for a while due to some health issues. All better now though.

Hi Wallace, I had noticed, I'm glad you are OK. :thumbup:

As a side bar to my involvement within the C*#! and Saferpak, I continue to lurk for the most part. My involvement with quality has diminished (Than you God) and, I have moved on to other and more challenging potentials.

What could be more challenging than Quality? :uhm: All the best Wallace, look after yourself mate. :beer:

Regards,
Simon
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