23 replies to this topic

[Jan de Wit]

I am working with producer groups in developing countries on quality management.
Most groups maintain multiple certifications such as fairtrade, organic, globalgap, SQF2000, BRC etcetera. That is quite a hassle as you will understand.

We are not going for ISO 22000 certification, but using 22000 as the basic framework in which the above standards are certified in different combinations.

I think flow charting a very usefull and powerfull method of analysing the organisations activities and procedures. We use flow charting a lot, and I would like to make flow charts the leading in creating the quality manuals.

Flow charts are made in Ms Visio. Risk assments are made in Excel and working instructions in Word. See the attached overview  Doc1.pdf   609.54KB   410 downloads.

Now my question: does anyone now how to link individual activities in the flow chart to risks and/or to working instruction in word or excel?
I would like to much to use the flow charts as the contents list of the quality manual. By clicking on an activity, one would automatically jump to the risks associated to that activity, or to critical limits or working instructions.

Alternatively, is there software on the market designed for ISO 22000 that integrates flow charting with risk assessents and more?

[a_andhika]

Dear Jan de Wit,

Welcome to the club!!:)

Personally, I would transfer the flow chart into excel. Make 2 columns in excel, the left one is dedicated for the flow chart, and the right one is for the hyperlink to the related documents. You can add the document's name/number on the right column (beside the related step/process), and then make hyperlink to the related file. After that, you just click the hyperlink, and tada.. the file was opened.


Regards,


Arya

[Jan de Wit]

Thank you Arya,

That is an option that I haven't though about. Yes, that works, but requires quite some work. If I cannot find a more sophisitcated option, I may start making links in Excel.

I am a bit suprised about the software issue. Consolance to me that some of you struggle with the challenge that I have, finding a proper way to prepare and manage all necessary documentation. Realy no user friendly software on the market yet that offers an integreted solution for flow charts, risk analysis, CP, CCP etcetera?

Edited by Jan de Wit, 02 December 2008 - 02:33 PM.

[angelica]

Dear Jan de Witt
where working in VISIO, open "Insert" menu, then "hyperlink". After that just follow the instructions, and refer to the particular file you want. Be careful to choose “Office files” at the bottom, so you can select WORD, EXCEL files and select the one you need.

I tried to link to a particular paragraph (in WORD) or cell (in EXCEL), but couldn’t. The best I could do was to insert a hyperlink to a particular file. Sorry I can’t help you more.

[Jan de Wit]

Dear Angelica,

Thanks. I know about the hyperlinking. However, far too laborous and too complicated for the target that I am working with. So my question remains, is there specialised software on the market.

Lucky Angelica, I can help you though with your challenge to hyperlink to a specific section in a Word document. Also linking to a specific cell or row or collumns is possible. I will work that out for you tomorrow.

Here is how to link to a section in Word from Visio.

Put your cursor at the correct location in the Word document. In Insert menu,
select Bookmark. In the dialog that comes up, give it a name (e.g. "Boo")
which may or may not be related to the actual text there. Click OK. You do
not need to insert a Word Hyperlink unless you want it to stand out there.

In Visio, select the form. Go to Insert/Hyperlink,

Click on the Document tab half way down. At the top click the Select button
and navigate to the Word file. At the bottom, type in the name of the
Bookmark ("Boo"). Click OK.

In the form there's now a hyperlink. Click it.

Edited by Jan de Wit, 03 December 2008 - 04:02 AM.

[a_andhika]

Dear Jan de Wit,

Thank you very much for the info. It really interesting, well although I am not a routine-user of Visio (personally I prefer to draw the chart manually at the Excel:p), I guess right now I have you and Angelica as my tutor if I face some difficulties:)

And for the software, I dont know if that kind of specific software is really exist (not ment to gives you pessimistic aura), I suggest you create your needs on web-based file (HTML). It can be transfered easily from one pages to another (vice versa), and probably much easier than transfer it to the Excel.


Regards,


Arya

[Charles.C]

Dear Jan de Wit,

Interesting post. I am a bit nervous to enter this thread due zero knowledge about Visio although I hv seen examples of its use for ISO 9000 applications.

However regarding yr query as to possible applications for different standards (the intention being if i understand correct to offer some kind of unified software package with details down to the risk analysis level for example), I hv to think that this is an extremely difficult undertaking. Difficult for one thing in that there are so many quite different viewpoints on what constitutes an acceptable risk evaluation structure, even for HACCP. This is I guess self-evident by the existing threads here in the iso 22k forum, never mind all the other certification systems. Presumably it is possible in principle to try to fix on one particular risk approach and use this as a core method to then branch out to the various standards within the usual element of accepted subjectiveness however I hv never seen any attempt to do this yet. Again, the developer's financial motivation may be against such an idea ? I recall studying the range of commercial software packages for iso 9000 on the net and most of them seemed quite useless to me. The quality manuals presented were invariably ok since based on the "general" defined standard but the procedural content, though often generically ingenious was IMO usually implementation-wise worthless as it required the further input by the user of an equal amount of his own work. OK if you were prepared to pay for a consultant to set it up for you which was perhaps the hidden intention - keeping things in the club.

Sorry if the above bit off-topic but I think the fundamental limitation yr idea is in the basics. If the latter can be accommodated, maybe.

So far I hv personally only seen one detailed software package / website for iso 22000 which from memory is French origin. daresay you know of this already.

Rgds / Charles.C

PS, I hv to confess that I wrote the above before looking at yr attachment. Very impressive although seems a very short process ?? I wud like to see it again with some real data in it. The visio component looks similar (from memory) to methodology used in the official presentation of the Dutch HACCP manual for agri-products (available on IT).

[Jan de Wit]

Dear Charles,

You are not off-topic at all. Higly appreciated.
I haven't been browsing the risk evaluation structures on the forum yet, and am looking forward to doing that shortly. Mmmm, nice, all these detailed discussions and answers that I have been pestering my direct colleagues with for many years.

Your analysis may be quite right, sadly enough. Indeed, most packages seem to be made for the consultants. And that is exactely not the way I want it organised. In my program we strongly focus on a coach based approach. Companies need to build their own system as to ensure ownership. I can easily key in a manual in a weeks time, but the implementation will never work then.

I haven;t come accross a French program yet, so if you know the name or have a link, welcome. I have been testing a Spanish program which was quite interesting, but extremely difficult to install and maintain.

About the attachment: indeed, the structure is adapted from the Dutch HACCP manual. In fact it is only showing the basic approach, nothing more. I am following the full ISO 9001 approach.

[Jan de Wit]

Dear Arya

If you prefer drawing flow charts in Excel, I advice that you give Visio a try.
You will absolutely enjoy the program. I agree that you can flow chart in Excel, but Visio is so much better for that. You can align forms, if you move forms, the arrows follow, all types of special forms etcetera.

Always happy to help you with Visio, but I don't think that is needed. The program is very easy and logic to use.

Cheers, Michiel

[Charles.C]

Dear Jan de Wit,

Thks yr comments. I will look through my archives to try and find the "French" ref, hopefully it will not turn out to be the Spanish one.
I forgot to add to my post that yr initial criticism of the plethora of existing standards is of course not new. The GFSI organisation is trying to unify several as you no doubt know, similarly ISO22000 with + PAS200(?) is clearly now trying to offer a competitive product. I hv no idea how you are envisaging including the joker "OPRP" factor in yr approach but that will be an immediate test for yr system IMO. If one looks back at the various draft documents preceding the 2005 launch (some available in this forum), it is obvious that there were enormous differences of opinion regarding the handling of prerequisite items. The current version together with the 22004 comments looks like a compromise text hence the confusion which seemingly still remains (it reminds me of the reactions to the process approach appearing in iso 9k-2k, the requirements of which are still mostly incomprehensible to me).
I actually found the Dutch HACCP presentation of the risk element rather nice and the concepts look to hv contained aspects of the later oprp idea although the former was presented in a much more operationally understandable format. Nonetheless, whether the basic 2- factor style of the original HACCP is just as "efficient" as the (2 + oprp) procedure is still completely open to debate as afar as I can see. In fact, based on some comments here from actual users, i infer that the auditing side of 22000 seems to also be attempting to compromise as to how deep any analysis should be so as to define the oprp steps - the temptation is to end up with a long list of oprps just like in the early HACCP programs.

Apart from the above, the USA / Canada IMO have also presented some nice qualitative risk analyses developed from the original procedures so as to be more prescriptive than Codex but often with many direct examples of actual processes. Their approach also seems to sometimes better overlap the Globalgap etc family of "pre-standards" into a combined style which I find more satisfactory than the European methods I've seen. (I've always been rather anti the concept of completely splitting the prerequisite factors from the main CCP text, guess I'm a HACCP traditionalist.). It's a big subject.

I'm curious regarding the general usage of Visio, seemed to me (based only on net viewing) that it has achieved significant penetration in iso 9000 but less so in the offshoots like the automobile variants / FMEA etc. Personally I originally (like many self-taught people I guess) did all the flow charts in Word due its short learning curve as compared to Excel (to me anyway) and the amazing flexibility of the boxes (Word 97 era). Was much later that I appreciated the often greater manouevrability within Excel sheets. To demonstrate my current ignorance I presume Visio is somewhere in-between?

Rgds / Charles.C

added - just saw yr other thread from which i deduce Visio is much closer to Excel ?

[Jan de Wit]

Charles,

Just a fast reply now, will read the bulk tomorrow in the plane and react later.

Visio is much closer to flow charting. It has been designed for flow charting. The interface is the same as Office though. If you managed to draw charts in Word, and think Excel say 100% better, you will find Visio 2000 % better!

I have no shares in Microsoft, but give it a try with a free trial version I would say.

Follow this (temporary) link to see what you can do with flow charting in Visio:
http://eloc.qms4s.or...fb0601/test.htm


Cheers, Michiel

Edited by Jan de Wit, 03 December 2008 - 05:50 PM.

[AS NUR]

Dear Michiel ..

Thanks for the Info.. I agree with you to make a flowchart Visio is more easily then Excell.. But for me i prefer to use Excell because the "friendly" user for me.. Excell can combine the flowchart with tables that consist some data ..Now i use some formula in EXcell and i did hyperlink to flowchart...

[Jan de Wit]

In fact I do about te same. I copy the flow chart as picture into the excel, where I make the risk assessment.
I agree that th hyperlinking works easier in Excel.

Edited by Jan de Wit, 04 December 2008 - 04:31 AM.

[Charles.C]

Dear Jan de Wit,

The software package for ISO 22000 referred my prev.post is -

http://www.skillsoft...m/index_045.htm
(> HACCP software > screenshots )

Origin France, website in French / English however some of the (quite nice-looking) screenshots seem to hv more detail in the original version (based on my limited French), eg see example below

 haccp_tree__compared__pictures_.xls   342.5KB   225 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

[whinendine]

Dear Jan,

Have a look at the software called Food Sentinel. It has process flow charts and you can click on a process stage to bring up hazards, document lists etc. It has its own document manager. It can be used for ISO 22k, 9k - whatever.
http://www.shiresyst...oodsentinel.htm

Best regards

Paul

[Jan de Wit]

Thanks Paul and Charles,

I am studying the links.

[AS NUR]

Dear Jan,

Have a look at the software called Food Sentinel. It has process flow charts and you can click on a process stage to bring up hazards, document lists etc. It has its own document manager. It can be used for ISO 22k, 9k - whatever.
http://www.shiresyst...oodsentinel.htm

Best regards

Paul

tha sound like "SentineL" in the "MATRIX" movie ...

[QA trainee]

Dear Jan,

Have a look at the software called Food Sentinel. It has process flow charts and you can click on a process stage to bring up hazards, document lists etc. It has its own document manager. It can be used for ISO 22k, 9k - whatever.
http://www.shiresyst...oodsentinel.htm

Best regards

Paul

Hi paul

have you used the program before? i have explored the demo on the site but have not used the system?! how useful would you say it is? the demo focused alot on auditing...how are the other elements managed? looking for abit more info if you have

thanks and regrads

T

[whinendine]

DearT

I do not comment on particular products. I only point people in a direction when they are looking for information and I think I may be of assistance. I recommend that you ask the company for a free trial system. They are very helpful.

Best regards

Paul

[Simon]

DearT

I do not comment on particular products. I only point people in a direction when they are looking for information and I think I may be of assistance. I recommend that you ask the company for a free trial system. They are very helpful.

Best regards

Paul

Hi Paul,

Your email address is @shiresystems.co.uk is that a coincidence or do you work for them?

Regards,
simon

[whinendine]

No coincidence. Shire Systems Requirements Engineering. I am a domain specialist, not commercial. Incidentally, I've just heard that any food company in the UK that wants a copy of Food Sentinel can get it for free. 5 copies are being given away as Christmas presents to food safety professionals who come up with the best justification

[okido]

Hi Jan,

I have been working on a CMS system to do the tasks you want, it still is in trial stage.
The CMS system needs a server and most likely a database, I have not decided on this yet.
The advantage is that there is instant version and acces control, editing is done in a browser.
The linking problem from diagrams is something I have not looked in yet, but links made from pictures is easy and diagrams are in essence pictures.
Creating diagrams is something not directly on my wish list but I will see what is possible
If I have something running I will post it here.

Have a nice day, Okido

[Jan de Wit]

Keep me posted, meneer Okido

Paul: interesting, what is the procedure?
I am working with a UK based company in Fair Trade and organic. Maybe a good idea for the CSR profile of Shiresystems?
Meanwhile, I am not able to download the trial from the Sentinel Website. I am getting an error message all the time. Maybe something for a domain specialist to solve?




Server Error in '/' Application.

An error has occurred while establishing a connection to the server. When connecting to SQL Server 2005, this failure may be caused by the fact that under the default settings SQL Server does not allow remote connections. (provider: Named Pipes Provider, error: 40 - Could not open a connection to SQL Server)
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.Data.SqlClient.SqlException: An error has occurred while establishing a connection to the server. When connecting to SQL Server 2005, this failure may be caused by the fact that under the default settings SQL Server does not allow remote connections. (provider: Named Pipes Provider, error: 40 - Could not open a connection to SQL Server)

Source Error:

An unhandled exception was generated during the execution of the current web request. Information regarding the origin and location of the exception can be identified using the exception stack trace below.

[whinendine]

Dear Jan,

Not me! I have spoken with the developers and it is apparent that we've srcrewed up. The demo was removed from the website because it took an age to download, but one obscure link - which you found - remained on a page header. We'll fix it. The software uses the MS .NET framework and that means the install is more lengthy and tricky than for a MS Windows application. Mr Bill Gates does not enjoy great popularity among software developers. So, for the .NET applications the policy is now to provide a hosted demo (recommended) but you will need to get in contact for that. Alternatively, you can request that a CD is mailed to you. As software is very task specific, there is no certainty that its going to do the job you want. But it did cost well over half a million pounds to develop and seems to fit the bill for many. Details about the New Year's gift to UK food manufacturers will be posted on the Shire Systems website early next week. Contact me directly if I can be of help

Baaie geluk meneer

Paul