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#1 Rolfo

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 02:02 PM

Hello,

My name is Rolf Clasener and I'm an intern at the Graham Packaging Zoetermeer plant.

I'm asked to do some research on the EN 15593:2008 ( Packaging - Management of hygiene in the production of packaging for foodstuffs -Requirements ) because the company would like to be registered in ISO 22000 and EN 15593.

My question or remark is: Are there any people or company's who have any experience in implementing ISO 22000 and the EN 15593 that could help me implementing these ISO's, maybe you have some tip and tricks for me.

awaiting with friendly regards,

Rolf Clasener
:helpplease:


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#2 Simon

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Posted 01 January 2009 - 05:15 PM

Hello Rolf and welcome to the forums. Well ISO 22000 and EN 15593 is certainly a strange mix and one which I do not think has been discussed here on the forumsd previously. I am sure however that we have members who have implemented one or the other separately in a packaging company so hopefully they will see your question and discuss with you.

I’m curious to know why you chose the two particular standards though?

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#3 Rolfo

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 02:06 PM

Hello Simon,

Thanks for your reply,

I'm curious to know why you chose the two particular standards though?

Because the EN 15593 is a standard the company really can relate to. But i was already done with the requisited requirements of the ISO 22000.

When i started my internship i was asked to update the quality management system and convert the haccp plan so that ISO 22000 could be registered. I updated the quality management system and set up all the nessecary documents for implementing the ISO 22000 when later in 2008 the final draft of the EN 15593 came. So i was asked to also look at the requirements for the EN 15593 and make sure all the requirements for this standard are met. ( the documentation of the Management system manuals still first need to be checked by an external company who will later on audit and register the certificate.)

The company wants the food safety management system be registered, given that the ISO 22000 is an equivalent of the EN 15593, why not also register for the EN 15593.( hygiene and a safety management system and the already present quality management system). Then just one big or long audit can be done, witch may result in a less expensive audit compared to more shorter audits.

EN 15593:2008 (Packaging - Management of hygiene in the production of packaging for foodstuffs -Requirements )

ISO 22000:2005 ( Food safety management system- Requirements for any organization in the food chain )

Hopes this quenches your curiosity,

Regards,

Rolf Clasener ( what a disaster to post a reply) Had to do 5 times
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#4 Simon

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 08:45 AM

Rolf Clasener ( what a disaster to post a reply) Had to do 5 times

Sorry to hear about that Rolf. Let me know what the problem is and I will investigate.

With regards to EN 15593 I have to admit I have not seen a copy yet. I expect it is very similar to the BRC Packaging Standard though as I cannot imagine they have invented a completely different wheel.

I cannot help you with your original question Rolf but I’m still interested in learning more about EN 15593. For example do your customers require you to achieve EN 15593? Is the standard taking off in The Netherlands in a big way or are your pioneers?

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#5 Rolfo

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:12 AM

Hello Simon,

I’m still interested in learning more about EN 15593. For example do your customers require you to achieve EN 15593? Is the standard taking off in The Netherlands in a big way or are your pioneers?


The customer doesn't require us to achieve EN15593, but it suits the company so well and i was already asked to update the present quality management system and convert the haccp plan so that ISO 22000 can be registered. So i also took in account that hygienic aspects should be controlled.

I've got the impression that we indeed are pioneers and haven't heard of any other company that is EN 15593 registerd. As for me as an intern it is already difficult, but now also no information of experienced people is available. So i think the standard is not taking off at any rate in the Netherlands.

When i call a company that does registrations of certificates. They don't give you any information about what so ever. No, they say ''just send us the documentations and we will look at your documentation, if that is in order then we will audit your plant and look if you follow your documentation and then we maybe could register you.'' So the company will try to register for the two standards at the same time.

My internship ends at the beginning of May and i will let know if we get the registration of the certificate for ISO 22000:2005 and/or EN 15593:2008

regards,

Rolf
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#6 Simon

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 08:05 PM

Well Rolf it's certainly a tough job to implement both systems by the start of May. Best of luck and in the meantime if you have any technical questions feel free to ask and we will try to help.

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Simon


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#7 RKruell

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 03:19 PM

Hello Simon,


The customer doesn't require us to achieve EN15593, but it suits the company so well and i was already asked to update the present quality management system and convert the haccp plan so that ISO 22000 can be registered. So i also took in account that hygienic aspects should be controlled.

I've got the impression that we indeed are pioneers and haven't heard of any other company that is EN 15593 registerd. As for me as an intern it is already difficult, but now also no information of experienced people is available. So i think the standard is not taking off at any rate in the Netherlands.

When i call a company that does registrations of certificates. They don't give you any information about what so ever. No, they say ''just send us the documentations and we will look at your documentation, if that is in order then we will audit your plant and look if you follow your documentation and then we maybe could register you.'' So the company will try to register for the two standards at the same time.

My internship ends at the beginning of May and i will let know if we get the registration of the certificate for ISO 22000:2005 and/or EN 15593:2008

regards,

Rolf



Hello Rolf!

I have work with the CEN TC 261 working group 1. We have made the EN 15593.

The german Registar DQS had certified 12 companies against EN 15593.
I think a lot of companies will change to EN 15593 instead of BRC Packaging.

Some great companies with factories all over in europe will change to EN 15593.

The ISO 22000 is für food companies and not for companies which producer of packaging material.

Sorry for my english, I am a little bit out of practice. I you like we can change to the german forum.
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#8 Simon

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 08:51 PM

The ISO 22000 is für food companies and not for companies which producer of packaging material.

Not quite true that Roland. EN15593 and BRC Packaging Standard may be more relevant for packaging companies, but ISO 22000 is applicable to all links in the food chain including packaging. :smile:
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#9 Rolfo

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 12:18 PM

Roland,

Thanks for your reply, i'm sorry but my german is not very good.

I think we are ready for an audit, i updated the haccp and all the documents in the quality manual ( organisation chart was full with names of employees that do not work here any more) and intergrated all the made concept documents of all the required documents for ISO 22000 ( food safety policy, apointed a food safety team (and leader), i made a seperate recall and a seperate traceability procedure etc.) and for EN 15593 ( a hygine policy, electronic master knife control, apointed a hygine team (and leader) etc.) And made sure yhat all the employees use/ follow these ''new'' rules and regulations.

I didn't encounter any problems ( that it would not be applicable ) when i made documents for iso 22000, EN 15593 and intergrated them in to our quality manual ( now its a quality, food safety and hygine manual)

I hope I interpretated it wright

regards

Rolf


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#10 rosie

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 06:44 PM

Hi Guys

I am interested in this discussion. I work for a Europe wide packaging company althoufg our factory is based in NI. I am sorry to say I have never heard of EN 15593. Can anyone enlighten me as to the difference from BRC packaging standard as we currently work to it. I come from a food manufacturing background and find the packaging environment a bit different. It can sometimes be overkill to work to food standards and many customers accept that after some discussion. I am currently updating our HACCP plan (or HARA plan as we prefer to call it due to the absence of CCPs in he true sense of the word). I have been reading other discussions on other forums particularly ISO22000 which I am currently steering clear of - I don't think it will help us. Its the first time I have come across OPRP. I think control point is enough for us currently. Anyhow, I'm off to do some training in HACCP (packaging) this week so I will certainly share anything I learn.

Rosie


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#11 Simon

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 07:15 PM

Hi Guys

I am interested in this discussion. I work for a Europe wide packaging company althoufg our factory is based in NI. I am sorry to say I have never heard of EN 15593. Can anyone enlighten me as to the difference from BRC packaging standard as we currently work to it. I come from a food manufacturing background and find the packaging environment a bit different. It can sometimes be overkill to work to food standards and many customers accept that after some discussion. I am currently updating our HACCP plan (or HARA plan as we prefer to call it due to the absence of CCPs in he true sense of the word). I have been reading other discussions on other forums particularly ISO22000 which I am currently steering clear of - I don't think it will help us. Its the first time I have come across OPRP. I think control point is enough for us currently. Anyhow, I'm off to do some training in HACCP (packaging) this week so I will certainly share anything I learn.

Rosie

Hello Rosie,

I can't tell you much about EN 15593, but I believe it is very much along the lines of the BRC Packaging Standard. If you are BRC Packaging Standard Certified I imagine you would be able to achieve EN 15593 with little (if any) work if you ever needed to.

Hopefully a user or expert can confirm?

Welcome to the forums Rosie. :smile:

Regards,
Simon
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#12 RKruell

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Posted 27 April 2009 - 11:34 AM

Hello Rosie,

I can't tell you much about EN 15593, but I believe it is very much along the lines of the BRC Packaging Standard. If you are BRC Packaging Standard Certified I imagine you would be able to achieve EN 15593 with little (if any) work if you ever needed to.

Hopefully a user or expert can confirm?

Welcome to the forums Rosie. :smile:

Regards,
Simon


Hi Simon!

I agree with you, that BRC Packaging Version 2 is very similar to EN 15593. The BRC Packaging version 3 has some more points of ISO 9001. A lot companies are certified against ISO 9001. I think that certification against ISO 9001 is a requirement of the customers.
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#13 pacepavicius

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 04:25 PM

Hello, I am an auditor with experience of conducting more than 500 audits against the BRC / IOP Global Standard since it was originally launched in late 2001. As a coincidence, yesterday was the first time a company I was auditing made reference to EN15593 Hygiene Standard.

It is important to make one thing clear in comparing the BRC / IOP Standard with the EN15593 Hygiene Standard. The BRC / IOP Standard is a full technical management standard with emphasis on the safety and legal aspects of food packaging in particular whereas the EN15593 Hygiene standard is exactly that - a hygiene standard. Having reviewed and compared the two standards, I find the EN15593 Standard rather superficial and pointless.

I think when you probe a bit deeper, you will find that very few, if any, food manufacturers have even heard of EN15593 and certainly don't expect their suppliers to be certified to it. However, as the BRC / IOP Stanadard is more detailed and thorough with respect to safety and legality as well as hygiene, food manufacturers have more confidence in its application and meets their requirements more fully from a due diligence perspective.

My advice, don't waste your time with EN15593. But I would say that, wouldn't I? Not necessarily. I will audit against any relevant Standard my certiifcation bodies ask me to, but no one, repeat no one, has ever mentioned EN15593 in passing let alone is seriously interested in it.

The choice is yours, of course.


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#14 Simon

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 03:30 PM

Hello Peter, I've not seen EN15593 but I had assumed it was the European version of the BRC standard. I'm sure however that (mainland) European countries / companies would back any standard as long as it didn't have "British" in the title - well wouldn't you? Please say hello to Brian for me.

Regards,
Simon


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#15 pacepavicius

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 09:47 AM

Hi Simon,

Good to see that you read all of the posts on your website and take an interest in all the issues. The problem with EN15593 is that it is only a hygiene standard and doesn't compare favourably with the BRC / IOP Global Standard. Your suppostiion that the "problem" with the BRC / IOP standard and for that matter any of the other BRC standards in particular the BRC Food Standard is that it is British doesn't hold water.

A visit to the BRC directory of certificated companies will quickly dispel any concern that it is not popular outside of Britain as the vast majority of certificated companies are overseas. In fact, most of my auditing time is spent overseas.

By the way, who is this Brian I have to say hello to?

Regards

Peter


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#16 Simon

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:32 PM

By the way, who is this Brian I have to say hello to?

Mr Fowler.
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