17 replies to this topic

[DESTGEER]

HI,
I AM WORKING ON HACCP IN MANDARIN POLISHING(WAXING) INDUSTRY AND ALSO STUDENTS OF FOOD SCIENCE. I AM CONFUSED ABOUT PRP AND OPRP. PLZ SEND OR TELL ME WITH EXAMPLES
THNX

[Charles.C]

Dear Destgeer,

I AM CONFUSED ABOUT PRP AND OPRP

Believe me, you are not alone !

I suggest you browse through the ISO forum which contains many answers to the difference. Then re-re-post if any particular requirements.

Rgds / Charles.C

PS No need for capitals, hurts the eyes.

added -

Broadly speaking (as in one of yr other post’s replies) prp’s are primarily from Codex / GMP / type programs, particularly infrastucture and maintenance variety although not exclusively (see ISO 22000 / 3.8 and 7.2.3).

Oprp’s (see 3.9 and 7.4.2 – 7.4.4) result from a hazard analysis and are a subset of potential control measures for the identified hazards whose evaluated classification is considered insufficient to justify categorisation as CCP status but still requiring appropriate attention.


To crudely summarise –

(1) The list in 7.2.3 generates PRPs
(2) The hazard analysis and following assessments (7.4.2 – 7.4.4) generate OPRPs (and CCPs)

You may find ISO 22004 explains the above more clearly than ISO22000 (and me).

If you want to see some more numerical solutions and examples, try Bennii’s posts here.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

If you cannot work out the answer from Charle's efforts then post your specific question about your process asking whether they are considered PRP's / ORP's or other.

Regards,
Simon

[AS NUR]

IMO.. ISO 22000 need control measure to assure that food safety program running well and Control measure are grouped into three groups :

1. PRP, that manage the basic condition and activities.

2.OPRP, that manage those control measure that the hazard analysis identigfies as necessary to control identified hazard to acceprable levels and which are not controlled by HACCP PLAN.

3.HACCP PLAN, that manage those control measures thta the hazard analysis identifies as necessary to control identified hazard to acceptable levels and which are applied at CCP.


Hope can make you clear....

[GMO]

I have to admit I still struggle with the concept of oPRPs despite knowing what they 'mean'. For me, it creates a 'grey area' in HACCP where the simplicity of HACCP is it's meant to be black and white and easy to understand. For example, would you still run a line if the oPRP wasn't working? You certainly wouldn't in the case of a CCP, if the answer is no for a oPRP, then what is the point of calling it an oPRP rather than a CCP?

I'm muddled.

[Charles.C]

Yes, muddled is a very good word for the result

In fact, to illustrate how the standard’s formative process got "muddled", I found the diagrams below for overall logic path and oprp decision tree chart while wandering on the net, my guess (only a guess) is that both are from a near-final draft of the standard. Some of the quoted numbers are not quite right also compared to the final format.
The intention of the second one is excellent IMO but logic confusion (IMO) appears around half-way through and continues to the end. The first one is even nearer the final version if you ignore the early “oprp box” and restyle a few other initial items perhaps. Neither layout made it to the finishing post. I think they should hv worked a bit more to straighten out the 2nd one and included it.

 prototype_ISO_22000_flow_logic.jpg   97.75KB   276 downloads

 prototype_ISO_22000__OPRP_decision_tree.jpg   69.63KB   234 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

PS - just to emphasise again - don't forget the above are not aligned to the official current standard

[GMO]

Thanks but I'm still unclear! I've also found in practice that people tend to get as much validation / monitoring info for oPRPs that in practice they're effectively the same. I also worry if I can't get it that an operator is stuffed!

[Biss]

Dear Charles,

for a official flow chart which describes PRP, OPRP & HACCP is available in the ISO 22004:2005 standard page 5

regards

[S.U.Siddiqui]

Assalamoalaikum Dastageer,

Nice to see another Paki guy on the forum, now about your question. It is very simple to differentiate b/w a PRP and an OPRP. For a moment, just forget about the TYPE OF INDUSTRY you are working in.

After doing this, consider which things are necessary to maintain hygiene around your food product. When i say around it means to maintain the hygiene for equipments, personnel, during storage, during handling, during transportation, keeping it away from pests etc etc etc. There are so many and that is the reason why clause 7.2.3 (k) mentioned "other aspects as appropriate".

Remember PRPs are always GENERAL and all those things are considered as PRP which can be applied to ANY TYPE OF FOOD INDUSTRY, regardless of its product or type of process. For example, clause 7.2.3 does not refer to supplier approval but if you think that ANY FOOD INDUSTRY cannot have a good food safety system without establishing a system for raw material approval then you add this to your PRP. i.e. Every raw material which will be purchased by your food industry will be purchased from APPROVED supplier only. This option can be availed under 7.2.3 (k).

PRP, OPRP and CCP are control measures and according to the definition of control measure: (Refer ISO22000:2005 section 2.7)

"action or activity that can be used to prevent or eliminate a food safety hazard or reduce it to acceptable level."

Hence a control measure would either Prevent, Eliminate or Reduce a food safety hazard. PRPs only PREVENT the hazards i.e. they are passive controls. They would not deal with eliminating a food safety hazard from your product. For example, proper handwashing is a PRP b/c it wouuld ensure that you do not introduce any bacteria or dust in your product from outside. Hence this control measure is PREVENTING and not ELIMINATING or REDUCING any food safety hazard.

OPRPs are specific to the type of process. For example, if the product contains some bacteria which can spoil it and you decide to heat the product to either completely ELIMINATE or REDUCE the bacteria then this heating (Cooking, Pasteurization or Sterilization) would either be an OPRP or CCP.

Shooooooooooooo.... Hope the point is clear.

Regards
Siraj

[Charles.C]

Dear S.U.Siddiqui,

Many thks for yr contribution. I admire yr effort to simplify the standard although I suspect the truth (ie as intended by the standard’s designers) is genuinely rather more complicated. I deduce this by looking at some of the (very few) semi-official publications on the subject as linked in this forum. On the other hand, the audited experience may be somewhat different, ie simpler, as has been indicated by some of the auditees here. I am grateful that I hv not personally had to be audited for this standard, BRC is quite enough of a headache already.

Hv a few minor comments on some of yr statements. Other people may not agree with me, no problem.

Every raw material which will be purchased by your food industry will be purchased from APPROVED supplier only. This option can be availed under 7.2.3 (k).

Personally, I interpreted 7.2.3.f to include supplier approval and associated activities. ISO 22000 is an excellent standard for promoting ambiguities.

PRP, OPRP and CCP are control measures

The first one, eg as per para. 3.8, is operationally somewhat wider than this in practice (as illustrated in the list of 7.2.3 for example). CCP is a "step" (para. 3.10)

completely ELIMINATE

Statistically speaking “completely eliminate” is not possible. I know, it’s only nit-picking, but an auditor forced me to remove this term from my HACCP cooking procedures. Made me quite angry at the time.

Regardless, I do agree with most of the concepts you put forward. I wonder if a lot of the confusion that many people experience is related to some of the standard’s subleties which you hv not yet discussed such as itemised in Benniis post in this forum (and others). Maybe you are right to avoid them since it may be possible that an audit can satisfactorily be passed without considering them. Perhaps we should hv a poll on this subject ??

@ Destgeer, any comments on the preceding posts, are they any help to clarify, or otherwise ???

Rgds / Charles.C

[S.U.Siddiqui]

Dear Charles,

I have experience of auditing, consulting and implementing ISO22000. So any person with this background would use a lot of COMMON SENSE to comply with the requirements of ISO22000 .

Otherwise if you would try to comply 100% with the requirements of ISO22000 you would end up being no where and your top management may FIRE you on being too conscious .

That's the way it goes. When i think of ISO22000, my focus is PRODUCT SAFETY.

As far as complete elimination is concerned, i would have argued with the auditor because WHO, FDA, UKFSA etc etc etc. suggest that all PATHOGENS (disease causing organisms) are completely eliminated if 85oC temperature is applied for about 30 seconds.

That is about the vegetative cells only. Spores can NEVER be eliminated, not even after sterilization so if your cooking process is targeting PATHOGENS, you were 110% right and auditor was wrong. I would have asked him to study some MICROBIOLOGY .

Regards
Siraj

[GMO]

As far as complete elimination is concerned, i would have argued with the auditor because WHO, FDA, UKFSA etc etc etc. suggest that all PATHOGENS (disease causing organisms) are completely eliminated if 85oC temperature is applied for about 30 seconds.

That is about the vegetative cells only. Spores can NEVER be eliminated, not even after sterilization so if your cooking process is targeting PATHOGENS, you were 110% right and auditor was wrong. I would have asked him to study some MICROBIOLOGY .

Spores can be eliminated but it requires higher heat treatments; otherwise we'd all be dead from botulism in canned foods surely? If it weren't possible to kill spores, shelf life stable cooked rice would not be possible (but it exists in cans and pouches!)

IMO complete elimination is difficult to prove as all the data relates to a x log reduction in pathogens. It's semantics I would suggest.

I have to say after all of the discussion, I'm still not a hell of a lot clearer on how an oPRP is practically different from a CCP. Can someone treat me like a 50 year old operator with no science experience who left school at 16 please and explain it in simple language???

[AS NUR]

IMO.. In practice view.. CCP is final control (other process can't delete the hazard) that make sure our product safe from any contamination. for example temperature for sterilization process.

OPRP is semifinal control ("my own sentence) . that make the hazard at the level minimum and to help ccp delete the hazard.

Hope my word simply enough.....

[S.U.Siddiqui]

Hi GMO,

I am not a microbiologist but have some knowledge of it. Kindly tell me that if it is possible to eliminate the spores completely, why does canned products have an expiry date/ use by date mentioned on them? They must be stable forever.

For the differentiation of CCP and OPRP, its very simple. Look into the clause 7.4.4 (a to g) which contains 7 sequential questions. Answer them and determine whether your control measure is a CCP or an OPRP.

a - Effect on identified hazard relative to strictness applied? (Partially effective- OPRP, Fully Effective- CCP)

b- Feasibility for monitoring? (Non-real time monitoring- OPRP, Real time monitoring-CCP)

c- Place within the system relative to other control measures? (Other control measures ahead - OPRP, No control measures ahead - CCP)

d- Likelihood of failure? (Unlikely- OPRP, Possible - CCP)

e- Severity of consequences in case of failure? (Low severity - OPRP, High severity - CCP)

f- Is control measure specifically applied for hazard? (No- OPRP, Yes - CCP)

g- Is the control measure has synergy with any other control measure?
(Yes-OPRP, No- CCP)

Thats how i did it. Answer these questions in the correct sequence as mentioned in standard and assign 1 point if your answer is OPRP and 2 points if your answer is CCP.

Now if the total of all points is 11 or above i.e. the answer of minimum 4 questions is CCP (4(CCP) x 2 = 8 + 3 (OPRP) = 11), then your control measure would be a CCP. Otherwise if points are below 11, then control measure would be an OPRP.

Regards
Siraj

[Charles.C]

Dear GMO,

I think yr question is analogous to the current requirement of UK (et al) businesses to comply with the EU/HACCP requirements of 2006(?). This resulted in the (ingenious?) appearance of the SFBB packages which I believe do not include the mention of CCP !. Perhaps a tacit admission that the type of person / operator you describe cannot reasonably be expected to assimilate the exact requirements.

However I will offer the extracts below (not previously uploaded here I think) which although perhaps targeted to a more heavyweight audience do offer one specific answer to yr basic question – the difference between orp and ccp. I think this content has to be evaluated within the context of both 22000 and 22004. The presentation is a sort of restricted / qualitative form of the posts of Bennii and Modarres (and previous post) and does consider some applications. The fact is that there are no doubt many, presumably acceptable, alternatives just as in HACCP. This subjectivity is almost blasted out in ISO 22004 in the (lengthy) discussion of 7.4.4. Unfortunately, it also demonstrates IMO that the philosophy involved is not that simple, although auditing necessities may suggest otherwise. (bit like PDCA in ISO 9000 maybe)

 iso_22000__oprp___ccp__a_viewpoint_.htm   31.71KB   199 downloads

 ISO_22000__oprp___ccp__one_current_decision_tree.pdf   126.1KB   205 downloads


Although helpful in many places, some of the statements in ISO 22004 which attempt to clarify the use of oprps / ccps are rather bizarre (and illogical) IMO, eg “the organisation may focus on having as many of the control measures as possible managed by operational prps and only a few managed by the HACCP plan, or the opposite”.

No doubt this debate will continue into the next revision (no mention of OPRP ? ).

Rgds / Charles.C

PS @ S.U.Siddiqui
Yes, as you say, individual spores can be killed/destroyed/inactivated/eliminated. However on the larger scale, it is difficult to exactly validate “100% destruction” both theoretically and practically. Hence the zigzaggy “D” terminology via log reductions, eg -

D - concept
Knowledge of the decimal reduction rate of Cl. botulinum enables the calculation of the safe elimination of this microorganism. It is assumed that a batch of cans is contaminated with one spore of Cl. botulinum per can (which is extremely unlikely). It is required that the sterilization be such that there is a likelihood of only one spore surviving in a trillion (1012) cans, or in otherwords a 12-fold decimal reduction (down to 10-12). Mathematically the complete elimination to zero microorganisms cannot be established.
The decimal reduction time of Cl. botulinum at 121°C is 0,21 min., and for the 12-fold effect the result is 12x0.21 min. = 2,5 min. The period of 2,5 min. at121°C is equivalent with F-value 2,5. This F-value of 2,5 is also called“botulinum cook” or “12-D-concept” and signifies the elimination of Cl.botulinum under practical conditions.

Other industries are more poetical , eg
 elimination_1.jpg   37.23KB   76 downloads

Other interesting terms like "commercially" sterile occur as you no doubt know. Not sure what auditors make of that one.

[excellens]

Just some comments.

The objective of sterilization is to achieve a "commercially sterile"product, which means a safe product for consumption over the expected shelf life.

Spores are very difficult to eliminate, but not impossible. The truth is that you have to apply so much heat that the product may be spore free, but nobody would eat it.

Agree with AS NUR about "semi Final"and "final" LOL

The new question is: We know we can have a process without CCP's. Can we have a process without OPRP's?

[Simon]

The new question is: We know we can have a process without CCP's. Can we have a process without OPRP's?

Feel free to start a topic on that subject if you so wish.

[Erasmo]

Just some comments.


The new question is: We know we can have a process without CCP's. Can we have a process without OPRP's?

Hi,
This is totally possible, but almost impossible in food manufacturing. That ussually happen in distribution of non perishables, equipment manufacturing and feed manufacturing.

- I'm visiting the Dominican Replublic this Monday in order to do 2 audits, and one open ISO-22000 training session.