94 replies to this topic

[Simon]

Dear Simon,

Perhaps you could have had a category for RTE / Non-RTE products ? My answer at least would change for a production line even if the hotel chef's might not. Consequently >>>>

Rgds / Charles.C

Hmm yes I see your point. Well in general I would prefer to see operators, chefs, food servers scrubing their hands regularly and vigorously.

Simon

[MRios]

I voted for handwashing. Cost is a very important issue where I work, and if we can get the same (or better) results with a lower cost, we´re definitely going with that choice.
Maybe MartLgn can give me some input on this one:
I work at a flour mill and when we take hand swabs, we do some before and after handwashing. In some cases, there is an increase in bacterial counts after handwashing. So of course that means that they washed them all wrong, but it seems to indicate that they had dirty hands to begin with and that the flour (we think because of static electricity), forms a type of glove that masks the original bacteria. When hands are not properly washed, this flour glove comes off and we get the original bacteria. Is there any literature to support this theory? or from anyone´s personal experience?
Please take into account that we´re taking our first steps in this area and changing people´s habits is incredibly hard.

[Charles.C]

Dear Mrios,

I work at a flour mill and when we take hand swabs, we do some before and after handwashing. In some cases, there is an increase in bacterial counts after handwashing. So of course that means that they washed them all wrong

My apologies for being cautious, but it may also depend on the reliability of yr measurements.

Rgds / Charles.C

[elias.loisos]

It seems to be somewhat of an endless debate,

I remember going through it when opening a Restaurant for a family member. The debate went on and on...and on and on...you get the idea

Anyways I ended up winning; we set up a sink with hot/cold water pedals and a quality soap. Regular cleaning was required and everyone was every serious about it.

On a plant point of view it's much more complex because of the obvious difference in staff size. I guess everyone's first reflex is that gloves are better. I'm still not 100% convinced on either of them but lets just say for now I think that an abundance in cleaning stations + rigorous management of hand washing might be preferable.

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, I’m not claiming to be right.

Regards,
Elias Loisos

[MRios]

Thank you Charles for your reply. We´ll take a closer look at the sampling technique.
I insist, the hardest part is getting people to acquire good habits. Handwashing is not a habit when people come from places where they have to walk to a public faucet to get their water.
Any other members from Third World countries ever experienced this?

[AS NUR]

Thank you Charles for your reply. We´ll take a closer look at the sampling technique.
I insist, the hardest part is getting people to acquire good habits. Handwashing is not a habit when people come from places where they have to walk to a public faucet to get their water.
Any other members from Third World countries ever experienced this?

dear MRIOS..

IMEX.. we separate our production zone to some class of hygiene.. and the most restricted are (the most hygiene) is packing room.. and we always control and monitor the hygiene both room and people (hand).. and we always find some people have exceed in micro (Contact Plate method) .. and we try to fix it..After some times we found the tehnique to hand wash from internet.. and until now we dont see any problems with people hygiene...

I attach here the file.. hope can help you...

Attached Files

•  ara_cuci_tangan.pdf   105.45KB   154 downloads

[Charles.C]

Dear AS NUR,

Nice handwashing attachment. Reminds me slightly of a ballroom dancing routine.

@ others. Yes, it is indeed an infinite debate as also demonstrated by other similar gigantic threads in this forum.
One continual problem is to avoid comparing apples and oranges. Plus the lack of standardised evaluation methods. (both sampling and measurement variations can yield massive percentage differences in replicates IMEX).
Never used it but the ATP method seems quite quantitatively attractive and robust for many applications, but, predictably, at a cost.

Once again, few ultimate conclusions seem to be reached but an ageing (1999), wide-ranging, official FDA survey can be seen here -

http://vm.cfsan.fda....ar/rterisk.html

a few misconceptions claimed to be resolved here -

http://www.shroomery...and-Handwashing

Rgds / Charles.C

[MRios]

Thank you Charles and ASNUR.
In fact our handwashing technique is quite similar to this one. It´s not the technique, it´s the actual not doing it, that gives us trouble.
By the way, we are looking into using ATP for surface checks, mainly because in our town there aren´t any labs that perform microbiological analysis for food, and setting up our own micro lab would be very expensive, not to mention training the technicians.

[AS NUR]

DEar Mrios..

IMEx.. in my company usingthat method to surface machine check... i am using hylite (from Merck).. this benefit of this method is rapid test (only 1 minutes) we can get the result, but this method is more expensive compare with traditional method (RODAC test or COntact plate test)... for one analysis is take ± US $ 1, and for the tradional method only ± US $ 0.3 ..

[MRios]

Thank you very much ASNUR!
In fact, we´re looking into using Hylite too. It seems very simple to use, so training is not an issue at all.
As for the traditional method, we don´t really have access to it all the time, since there aren´t any food analysis labs close by. The only ones available are in the capital city 200 kms away, which can take anywhere from 3 to 5 hrs to get there, depending if they´re working on the road or there´s too much traffic.
And actually US$1 is something we could definitely live with. The traditional method costs us twice that, and we get the best prices there are!!

[GMO]

And I imagine wearing gloves is very uncomfortable especially in summer.

Not an issue in most high risk / care factories as the temperature is normally between 8 and 13 degrees in assembly areas all year round.

I think it's all been said really. I've seen good and bad practice with both in shops and factories.

Interestingly, your butcher example sounded great Simon. There is nothing wrong with using a non antibacterial soap, it's still very effective (I think Sprenger recommends using normal soaps to avoid irritation from memory) and using paper towels is generally seen as better than air driers as there are few aerosols and the rubbing of the towel is actually thought to reduce counts further. Also there is a tendency to get bored waiting for air driers to do something. The only thing I would suggest to improve it would be to have separate staff for the cooked counter or at least utensils (regularly cleaned) to avoid manual handling of ready to eat foods.

Btw Caz, posh ready meals factory! I've heard about those systems but in 4 factories I've worked in, I've never seen one.

Edited by GMO, 04 May 2009 - 07:52 PM.

[Amber McCreary]

I actually visited a ready meal factory (for an interview) and whilst doing the grand tour we went through a hygiene barrier that consisted of a hand wash station and a turnstile. The turnstile wouldn't activate until you had washed your hands for at least 30 seconds!! i was suitably impressed!!

I love this idea, but I wonder about the cost invovled. Most companies are cutting back these days and I think this would be a hard sell.

[Abdul Qudoos]

Gloves vs Hand washing for Food packaging industries?

Hand washing is more effective, economical and good for personal hygiene...

Compare to gloves wearing and working without gloves makes much difference, feel free and do work as fast and accurate!
+ gloves required for high risk foods.

Regular hand swabs are very important...

[Tony-C]

Thank you Charles and ASNUR.
In fact our handwashing technique is quite similar to this one. It´s not the technique, it´s the actual not doing it, that gives us trouble.
By the way, we are looking into using ATP for surface checks, mainly because in our town there aren´t any labs that perform microbiological analysis for food, and setting up our own micro lab would be very expensive, not to mention training the technicians.

Hand swabs using ATP can give spurious results. This may be because scrubbing can break cells and release ATP.

Regards,

Tony

[cazyncymru]

I have discovered dipslides that have Bacillus agar on one side and Entro agar on the other.

Great when you can visually demonstrate to an operator how dirty his hands are!

Caz

[muffin]

Hand washing > Gloves

For 3 reasons:
1. Personal Hygiene
2. Gloves can be contaminated
3. Costly to provide disposable gloves where recession is happening

-Harvey C.

[Simon]

Looking back on this old poll it looks as though our members prefer good old hand washing.

[Abdul Qudoos]

Few plants are fully integrated with machines and equipments (they are fully automatic) where there is a no person required from the loading bay to the end / pack of finished product, Operators required PPE - suitable gloves when they required, Although Hands are important tool

For the food handlers If required they may use vinyl gloves but hands shouldn't contacts directly to the food materials instead they can use tool (scoops, spoons etc.)

Proper hand washing and swabs / microbiology of hand required time to time, installation of hand washing facilities at junctions - a good soap and sanitizers provided to the workers and some training and motivation required for proper hand washing.

Few people are allergic to powdered gloves, may get rashes on skin when they sweat,

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

2 part, quite analytically inclined, appraisal of the glove situation -

Understanding the Glove Paradigm - Part 1

Understanding the Glove Paradigm - Part 2


Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

Great find Charles.

[foodsafetyboy]

Gloves must never be used as substitute for handwashing. :)

[campbell]

I was always taught that clean hands were better than gloves.
Regular washing of hands is preferable as with gloves there is potential for build up of sweat in which bacteria can grow. A small hole in the glove can then inject a shot of bateria onto everything you touch.
As an extra thought - How many of the blue gloves used in industry are suitable for food contact applications?

[elaine1980]

My personal experience with disposible gloves and why I chose hand washing!......
A pleasant lady behind the counter in a sandwich shop (wearing blue disposal gloves) is wiping down a chopping board. She goes to the fridge and takes out a jar of mayonnaise. Picks up a knife to start making a sandwich for the customer in front of me. Oooops! Dropped the knife!! But its okay, she put the knife in the sink after picking it up off the floor and grabs a clean one. (Still wearing the same gloves that just touched the floor though). Makes a ham/mayo sandwich and wraps it in a brown bag. Exchanges bag for money. Handles money (still wearing gloves) and opens the till by pushing several buttons (still wearing gloves), then gives change to the customer. So far she has mayonnaise on her gloves which contains egg allergen, butter which contains milk allergen, maybe a bit of listeria from the floor, some staphs from the coins along with a bit of pocket fluff probably. And that was just in the space of 5 minutes, I'd happily put a gamble on those gloves being the only pair she'll wear all day. And I wonder if she washed her hands before she put them on?
Complacency and poor training. Didn't go back!

[FoodChick]

I was always taught that clean hands were better than gloves.
Regular washing of hands is preferable as with gloves there is potential for build up of sweat in which bacteria can grow. A small hole in the glove can then inject a shot of bateria onto everything you touch.
As an extra thought - How many of the blue gloves used in industry are suitable for food contact applications?

I'd be interested to hear what types/brands of gloves are being used (suitable for food contact applications)? Vinyl, natural rubber, nitrile, neoprene, etc?

And what was the reason for that particular selection? Price, application, durability, etc?

Thanks!

[TheDude]

We enforce proper hand washing and use gloves/sanitizer. Here is our procedure:

Attached Files

•  Hand Washing.docx   15.04KB   120 downloads