27 replies to this topic

[sudarshan]

Hello friends

Just i think on it that, can auditor give suggestion during audit to auditee?

As per my thinking " YES"

Comment on this

Thank you

Sudarshan

[FSSM]

Dear sudarshan,

Auditors, should avoid doing suggestions. They are supposed to look for opportunities for continuos improvement, but they don´t have to tell you what to do, they must tell you where you are not doing thinks ok and why, but not necesarily how to solve it. It can contribute to misunderstandings, as this auditor might not visit you again, and the next auditor might not agree with the suggestion. So any decision about your process should be well documented and based on facts. If any auditor suggest something, you might take it into consideration, just if it is well documented.

Obviously an auditor should contribute to the company with their observations (not suggestions), they are not a consultant.

Regards,

FSSM

[AS NUR]

agree with FSSM.. Auditor only comment on "Observation or opportunities for continuos improvement", field data or literature study that suggest to doing some improvement and remember you have to doing by your shelf...

[Kamwenji Njuma]

Dear All,

I also agree with FSSM and As Nur,The auditor is supposed to look for objective evidence,give observations and not to comment on issues not in the audit plan or give suggestions on what that should be done or what that was supposed to have been done.

Regards,
Jeremy

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

Sometimes it depends what you mean by suggestion IMO.

For example, I remember early on in my career having a long argument with an auditor on the subject of validating CCPs. She issued a general nonconformity for incorrect validation although I had supplied pages of corroborative data to support the case. All attempts for clarification were politely evaded so I eventually asked "What do you expect to see when you audit other people for this aspect?" Answer was "a reference". Case closed.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Madam A. D-tor]

Dear all,

As an auditor, Iam not allowed to do consulting activities.
One suggestion about how to solve a problem can be seen as consulting.

Auditors are however allowed to clarify the Standard/requirement. And the interpretation of the auditor will naturally be part of this clarification.

As an auditor, I see al lot of companies and also a lot of methods to fullfill the requirements. During the audit tour I will make remarks to the company for continue improvement. I try to avoid consulting/advising. These remarks can include suggestions. I always make sure that I give 3 examples/suggestions about how to solve an issue. in this way it is no consulting. The company it self has to decide which way to follow. Further these remarks/suggestions are only given oral and will not be documented in the report.

[tsmith7858]

Dear all,

As an auditor, Iam not allowed to do consulting activities.
One suggestion about how to solve a problem can be seen as consulting.

Auditors are however allowed to clarify the Standard/requirement. And the interpretation of the auditor will naturally be part of this clarification.

As an auditor, I see al lot of companies and also a lot of methods to fullfill the requirements. During the audit tour I will make remarks to the company for continue improvement. I try to avoid consulting/advising. These remarks can include suggestions. I always make sure that I give 3 examples/suggestions about how to solve an issue. in this way it is no consulting. The company it self has to decide which way to follow. Further these remarks/suggestions are only given oral and will not be documented in the report.

I think Madam says it best. There is a fine line between "suggestions" and "consulting" and in the end it is the company itself that has to decide on an action. Allowing an auditor to tell you what to do without your own research is dangerous because as FSSM suggested, different auditors have different views. And as Charles suggests there are even different views on what constitues a "suggestion".

You need to be able to explain why you made your decision, and if the answer is "an auditor told me to do it that way" than you may have missed something.

I had an ISO audit where the auditor observed my work instructions and "observed" or "suggested" they were not located in the best spot for the operators. I spoke with the operators who explained why they had chosen to put the work instructions where they were and returned to the auditor to let him know we would not be moving them. There are many varying opinions on a simple thing like how to handle work instructions but the only one that matters is the one that works for you as it should be with any matter.

TS

[Abdul Qudoos]

The auditors should not give any type of suggestion directly or indirectly during the audit. They should observe, comment and discuss with MR and management and provide the observances for the improvement.

A consultant can give suggestions but not the auditor.

[Sthembiso]

Hello friends

Just i think on it that, can auditor give suggestion during audit to auditee?

As per my thinking " YES"

Comment on this

Thank you

Sudarshan

Sudarshan,
am still trainig and in the few audits that i have been privellaged to be part, i have been advised not to give any form of advice during and after an audit unless if done privately, at a consultancy level and in this case should declare interest in future audits.
However this is hard as at times advice wil come out unknowingly but its standard practice for auditors not to give advice during audits/inspections.

Sthembiso

[mquishtah]

Dear All

As an auditor, auditor can not give any suggestions to auditee because his role is not do give consultancy work for the organization during his surveillance audit

Thanks

[Tony-C]

I have to agree with Madam A on this.

A good auditor can add value to the audit buy suggesting solutions (Not making recommendations)

I used to have a 9001 auditor that when raising non-conformances or observations I used to ask "Can you suggest a way of resolving this?" He would tell me in a way that wasn't making a suggestion but gave me an idea of the solution "I have seen people do this in such a way"

Regards,

Tony

[Amber McCreary]

I agree Auditors are not supposed to give suggestions, but I too believe there is a fine line in consulting and auditing. Ours DOES simply because we have a working relationship with him. Because we have the same auditor year after year and because he is aware of our problems areas he is able to aid us here and there, which i would consider priceless. We simply impliment his "suggestions" when ever possible and consider ourselves lucky for getting the advice free of charge.

[Charles.C]

Dear QDA,

I like the symbiotic relationship (investment?) which you hv established. Perhaps auditors share a common genus with "us" after all.

Unfortunately, there is clearly a divergence in published viewpoints on this subject, eg consider the two (+) and (-) extracts below which I borrowed from books on the subject.

 audit_suggestions.png   60.13KB   31 downloads

 audit_suggestions_2.png   35.72KB   26 downloads

One could almost be tempted to use the first one (from the "certified HACCP auditor’s handbook") as a validation for help.

As a further practical example of a seemingly official use of “help”, try this reproduction of an actual food audit report in Scotland.

http://www.falkirk.g...66-FHy-0208.pdf

Amazingly friendly feeling generated although it doesn’t seem to state whether the overall result was a rejection or not. Maybe the audit frequency was changed to weekly.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

Rules are for bending and IMHO a good auditor can and should provide ideas and even answers without SPELLING IT OUT.

Auditee: How would I do that then?

Auditor: I have seen other companies who use a matrix with this and that and it works quite well.

Auditee: Ahh I see.

Is that against the rules? Consulting? Or value added auditing?

If my auditor didn’t do that I'd get one that did.

Regards,
Simon

[a_andhika]

Dear All,

Interesting discussion. I always think, that technically, our company paid the certification body, to check through their auditor, whether our system is fit with the standard, or the opposite one. So, why I cant "communicating" with their auditor?

If an auditor sets a minor finding, and I ask him/her about my plan of corrective actions, is it considered as asking a "suggestion" or "consultation"? If it yes, and its forbidden, then why I should bother doing some corrective actions if in the end there is a chance our auditor wont accept it?

But I am fully aware, that it would be ridiculous if an auditor gives a blatant input for us, to fix the findings, without being asked. It will be the same as a bunch of corrupt politicians! Coz I am sure there's something behind the kindness of the auditor.


Regards,

Arya


@Simon: Bend it over, yeah, rocks!

[Jean]

There should be a cooperative and professional relationship between auditor and auditee, an auditor can provide ideas that may add value or inform of any emerging trends in best practice to any organization. At the end of the day audits should be done with due diligence, proficiency and professional care. I would prefer an auditor who can provide a wide range of solution rather than just smirk with audit findings with reference to the standards or guidelines and say, sorry folks I cannot provide any consultation or suggestion which is against the code of ethics.



What do the auditors have to say on this topic??

[Kaspars]

Dear sudarshan,
during the audit definetly no suggestions should be even expected from auditor. The auditor's task is to do an evaluation of existing situation. Making suggestions might turn rather painful to auditors reputation because any clause of any standard could be applied different in different organizations. To give suggestions is task of consultants (who quite often say what you already know).

[Simon]

Are there any Certification Body auditors around - what's your take on this subject?

[sudarshan]

Dear All

Thanks for Comments

Standards says "Auditor can not give suggestion"

But some times auditor raise one of the issue which you cannot justify or clearly understand what he/she saying that time you needs to clarify how to tackle or solve that issue. that time auditor comment or say some thing, this means auditor not give any advice but as his point of view he can suggest/clarify that issue.

Ex. Pesticide to be tested in product.

In this issue no any standard give parameter of pesticide for particular product

that time how that problem will solve because auditor raise issue testing of pesticide but which parameter to be test that was not clarify.

any grammatical error forgive me....

Sudarshan

[JSFB]

for me this depends on the type of audit. I would not expect suggestions from a BRC auditor as all they are doing is verifying a standard, i would however expect suggestion or advice from a customer audit, AIB or ISO audit as the auditor should be trying to improve your site knowledge and help the site improve. I am work as a supplier auditor and always try to impart knowledge that may help our suppliers as it may give them an advantage over there comptitors which can only be good for my company. An AIB audit can be a great educational experiance.

i think Simon got it spot on with the i have seen it done like this approach to suggestion.

[Cathy]

I recently took the auditor's class and exam for SQF auditors. There is an interesting option in the audit for when something is observed that is not precisely a noncompliance to the code, but is also not within industry best practices according to the auditor's experience. This type of observation is labeled as an "opportunity for improvement' and minimal points are deducted from the overall audit score. An example of an opportunity for improvement might be that a company has a functioning metal detection system that stops a belt and sounds an alarm when metal is detected. An opportunity for improvement would be a mechanism that also removes the product and rejects it from the produciton stream. I have heard that some certification bodies dislike this practice since it borders on consulting and potentially includes factors in the audit that are not precisely part of the code. I have not done an SQF audit yet, but my tendency is to think that we need to simply stick to the code and not go beyond it.

[GMO]

I had a trainer (and ex auditor) clarify this for me. She said you have to be careful as an auditor not to raise a non conformance just because a company has done something in a bespoke way. As long as what they're doing complies with the standard, it is acceptable. Also she said that she often gets asked for advice and if pushed she will say "this is how I've seen other companies approach a similar issue" and give examples (while making sure she maintains confidentiality). She said she's always careful to qualify this with "this is only one way of doing it" as often people can come up with better solutions which work better on their site.

[Simon]

As mentioned earlier as an auditee when faced with a NCR I would much prefer the auditor to give me some confidential best practice examples rather than me scratching around in the dark. Saves everyone time and leads to CI which is a very important component of management systems. For me there is a huge difference between the above and an auditor giving an NCR for lack of training for example and then offering a training course.

Regards,
Simon

[Kamwenji Njuma]

Dear All,

Just to add ,an audit is NOT an interpretation of what the auditor thinks is right or wrong but how far the organisation meets the codes requirement.

Regards,
Jeremy

[tomorrowguy]

Dear All

My opinion is "NO".

Auditor and Certification body/register can not provide any consultancy to Auditee according to the following standard's requirement.

Clause 5.2.7 The certification body shall not certify a management system on which a client has received management system consultancy or internal audits, where the relationship between the consultancy organization and the certification body poses an unacceptable threat to the impartiality of the certification body.