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GMO

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:03 AM

Ok, my local Co-op shop sells unrefrigerated sausage rolls (they used to call them "ambient", however, as people didn't know what that meant they humorously had to remove that description!) For non UK residents, a sausage roll is sausage meat (ie finely minced pork and pork fat with herbs, seasoning and rusk) cooked in puff pastry.

Now to me, these are a high risk food; high in protein and sufficiently high Aw to support microbial growth. I once contacted Co-op asking why these were unrefrigerated but they told me they have "satisfied their EHO that the micro results are ok" and that the sausage rolls "are only for sale for 1 day to be eaten on that day".

Now this bothers me. For one, surely this is not safe, you wouldn't sell cooked pieces of pork unrefrigerated or cooked sausages so why sausage rolls? Also this is not taking account of likely abuse by the consumer. I very much doubt all consumers eat within the day especially as these are quite large packs.

I thought UK legislation stated a maximum unrefrigerated time of 4 hours on one occasion for high risk foods? My local shop is open for 15 hours a day so that's presumably the maximum time they are on display (assuming they are refrigerated before that who knows?)

So, what's your opinion on this practice? Was it a case of an EHO not really understanding HACCP? Should the letter of the law be adhered to? Has abuse really been taken into consideration? Am I an interferring busybody?



Mike Carr

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 11:49 AM

I know sausage rolls can often contain a questionable amount of actual meat, but that is surprising. Perhaps there is no meat in Co-op 'sausage' rolls whatsoever.

At an airport I once noticed the fridge with the sandwiches in was actually heating them up! Now I like melted cheese on a sandwich as much as anyone, but on mentioning it at the till, I was stunned when they said it had been like that for ages!


Food hygiene standards in businesses are improving, and hopefully the confidence in food businesses will continue to grow. Online food safety training and having a Food Hygiene Certificate indicates the efficiency of modern food hygiene practices.

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 07:40 PM

Dear GMO,

Just for other people’s information, here is a link (including a few humourous addenda) for your “ambient” sausage

http://news.uk.msn.c...entid=151975623

Two possibilities come to mind, (a) the sausage content is genuinely shelf stable or (b) the product is the typical RTE, non-shelf stable item and something rather peculiar is occurring regarding storage, ie as per yr post.
Various sausage based entities do globally occur in category (a), notably fermented forms, but I presume it is safe to assume that the item under discussion is in group (b).
(anyone interested in the many numerous sausage permutational stabilities possible might be interested in these 2 links –
1. http://www.fsis.usda...afety/index.asp

2. http://www.fda.gov/F...s/ucm094143.htm

The posted query seems to have a potential relevance to section 1.4.3 in link2 above, ie this extract –

The United Kingdom does not use the term "potentially hazardous food" but identifies foods that require temperature control in the Food Safety (Temperature Control) Regulations, (1995) SI 1995/2200. These regulations require "Chill holding" at 8 °C (46 °F) for "any food which is likely to support the growth of pathogenic micro-organisms or the formation of toxins." Foods considered likely to fall into this category include the following:
• Dairy products, such as soft or semi-hard cheeses ripened by molds and/or bacteria, and dairy based desserts, unless the pH is 4.5;
• Cooked products such as meat, fish, eggs, milk, hard and soft cheese, rice, pulses, and vegetables;
• Smoked or cured fish;
• Smoked or cured ready-to-eat meat which is not ambient shelf-stable;
• Prepared ready-to-eat foods such as prepared vegetables, salads;
• Uncooked or partly cooked pastry and dough products such as pizzas, sausage rolls, or fresh pasta.
Time-related exemptions from temperature control are provided for the following products:
• "(a) cooked pies and pasties containing meat, fish or any substitute for meat or fish or vegetables or cheese or any combination thereof encased in pastry into which nothing has been introduced after baking and sausage rolls which are intended to be sold on the day of their production or the next day;

• "(b) uncut baked egg and milk pastry product, e.g., custard tarts and Yorkshire curd tarts intended for sale within 24 hours of production."
General exemptions from chill holding requirements are given to "foods which, for the duration of their shelf life, may be kept at ambient temperatures with no risk to health." A food business must provide "well-founded scientific assessment of the safety of the food at the specified temperature and shelf-life" for products recommended to be held above 8 °C (46 °F). Regulations do not articulate data requirements, rather they stipulate that assessments should be done by a "competent laboratory," either in-house, for large businesses, or through independent laboratories.
These regulations recognize the influence of processing and time. For example, baking destroys vegetative cells and dehydrates exterior surfaces. The potential for growth of pathogenic spore formers exists, but time is used to control this hazard. The panel questions whether there is adequate scientific basis to support a time of one day of safety at ambient temperature for the time/related exemptions.


I hv “boldened” the particularly interesting bits, it seems that back in 2001 (?), someone else also noticed the peculiar dispensation to sausage rolls !

The 4hour period referred in GMO’s post is specified in this (older) official link

http://archive.food....ide/tempreg.htm

(paras 21,24) but I don’t see any mention of longer periods at that time. One suspects that the exemption list got quietly expanded sometime later, or perhaps there reallly is an actual scientific sausage roll defence lurking somewhere in the fsa literature. :smile: (An interesting query to test yr local shop, or County Council)


Rgds / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Simon

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:28 AM

Am I an interfering busybody?

Maybe, but of bigger concern is the sausage rolls. :smile:

Like most children mine love sausage rolls and I like to shop around, so I can tell you that in all supermarkets they are stored in chillers.

For those who have not seen a sausage roll I have attached an image, you can see the words “keep refrigerated” on the pack.

Regards,
Simon

Attached File  sausage rolls.jpg   22.18KB   23 downloads

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GMO

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:12 AM

Cool thanks guys. Charles, it's interesting that the quote comes from the FDA not UK legislation but it's referring to UK legislation. I was unaware that pies and pasties could be exempted. It doesn't seem sensible to me, it's not like the pastry is some kind of seal!

I don't know about you guys but although I have a lot of time for some very good EHOs I have worked with, their HACCP knowledge is shocking. I have a gut feel that these sausage rolls are baked in store meaning that they are not cooked in a high / low risk facility and to be truely validated, each store should be tested!

Anyway, irrespective of the legality (or not) I'm not buying one. Unless I suddenly feel like adding an extra sample to the micro list of course...



Charles Chew

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:59 AM

Anyway, irrespective of the legality (or not) I'm not buying one. Unless I suddenly feel like adding an extra sample to the micro list of course...

I don't buy them at all and its certainly not ambient shelf life stable. RTE food with sausage roll should be kept in a warmer. I am with you.

Charles Chew

Cheers,
Charles Chew
www.naturalmajor.com

Charles.C

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:37 PM

Dear All,

Seemingly based on publications such as in my previous post, here is an extract from a UK local county council(GMO's district? :smile: ) defining what I suppose might be called “the 24 hour ambient sausage roll”.

Uncut egg custard tarts can be kept at room temperature for up to 24 hours after production.
Cooked pies and pasties (provided nothing has been added to them after cooking) and sausage
rolls can also be kept at room temperature for up to 24 hours after production.

If you plan to leave these foods at room temperature for up to 24 hours, you must have a
system to make sure you do not exceed the 24 hours.

http://www.eppingforestdc.gov.uk/library/files/environmental_services/Temperature%20control%20in%20the%20kitchen.pdf

Sadly, I could not find any quoted/quotable scientific basis for above exemptions. Mrs Beeton perhaps ?

FWIW I also found a rival to the ASR in the form of the “ambient éclair” which offhand sounds potentially even more dodgy.
http://www.northcoas...TRALIA-210.aspx
(8 lines down)

I’m wondering if the Co-op are still selling this product under revised name, it has certainly generated an enormous global quantity of (mostly) humourous interest on the web however in reality, there are obviously some equally interesting technical questions so far left unanswered.

Rgds / Charles.C

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Charles.C


Tony-C

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 05:11 AM

Ok, my local Co-op shop sells unrefrigerated sausage rolls

Now to me, these are a high risk food; high in protein and sufficiently high Aw to support microbial growth. I once contacted Co-op asking why these were unrefrigerated but they told me they have "satisfied their EHO that the micro results are ok" and that the sausage rolls "are only for sale for 1 day to be eaten on that day".

I thought UK legislation stated a maximum unrefrigerated time of 4 hours on one occasion for high risk foods? My local shop is open for 15 hours a day so that's presumably the maximum time they are on display (assuming they are refrigerated before that who knows?)

So, what's your opinion on this practice? Was it a case of an EHO not really understanding HACCP? Should the letter of the law be adhered to? Has abuse really been taken into consideration? Am I an interferring busybody?


I can see your point, when I am in the UK I also see many hot display food cabinets in stores that don't seem to be that hot (>63 C) to me. With regards to the Sausage Rolls I would prefer to see them either held hot or refrigerated. The legislation does allow exceptions:

The Food Hygiene (England) Regulations 2006
General exemptions from the chill holding requirements
3. Sub–paragraphs (1) and (3) of paragraph 2 shall not apply in relation to — food which, for the duration of its shelf life may be kept at ambient temperatures with no risk to health

So if they have convinced the EHO that they are okay at ambient for the display period then under the legislation this is acceptable. If they are cooked to the correct core temperature and adequately covered what is the likelihood of contamination and microbial growth?

I believe that most supermarkets will refrigerate packaged sausage rolls to ensure they achieve their shelf life which is more likely to be 7 - 10 days. A greater shelf life helps reduce product wastage in store.

Regards,

Tony


Charles.C

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Posted 04 September 2010 - 05:28 AM

Dear GMO / All,

I find this a rather fascinating topic. :unsure:

One further practical (and I would have thought LEGAL) question (to GMO?) - How are (were?) these ASRs labelled, eg "must be consumed before 2359 hrs of "today"" or ????

Is the Supermarket (somebody?) legally obliged to have the document available for public inspection which was seemingly used to convince the EHO as to the legitimacy of the safety aspects.

I can just imagine yr asking the sales person as to whether they are aware that this item is a rather unusually "flexible" product from a food safety aspect so that you ( the buyer) would like to see the relevant approval for its sale prior to purchase >>>> Huh? :smile: (obviously this question is potentially related to labelling)

Rgds / Charles.C

PS Tony's closing comment of previous post also seems reasonable to me, ie what is the attraction in marketing these items which are, by definition, safe for one day ! - the UK penchant for gambling :smile:


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Posted 09 September 2010 - 12:56 PM

Now to me, these are a high risk food; high in protein and sufficiently high Aw to support microbial growth. I once contacted Co-op asking why these were unrefrigerated but they told me they have "satisfied their EHO that the micro results are ok" and that the sausage rolls "are only for sale for 1 day to be eaten on that day".

First I wanted to get on the record that I like sausage rolls and for that matter anything made of pastry with something inside. Never mind 1 day in the past whenever I have purchased a sausage roll it has usually disappeared before I get home. I can't imagine anyone letting a sausage roll fester for more than a few minutes, so on that basis I think they are perfectly safe. :smile:

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:22 PM

Dear All,

Out of curiosity generated by this thread, I did some perusing in small food retail establishments (not in UK). To my surprise, I discovered a range of small, individual, ham / sausage / bread pizzas packaged in plastic bags on the ambient display shelves. Shelf life printed as 4 days at below 25degC. Ingredient list indicated "preservative".
Either another special exemption or perhaps there is another factor involved in this "ambient" food category. maybe it is GMO sauage ??

Rgds / Charles.C


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Charles.C


GMO

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 07:14 AM

maybe it is GMO sauage ??


I refute this claim, this sausage has nothing to do with me! :whistle:


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Posted 11 September 2010 - 09:14 AM

I refute this claim, this sausage has nothing to do with me! :whistle:


Actually, if you think about it, the sausage roll might not even contain sausage!!

Wonder if they QUID the 40% perservative in it?????


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Posted 11 September 2010 - 05:29 PM

I refute this claim,


Sorry, was thinking "Organic" -_-

Actually, if you think about it, the sausage roll might not even contain sausage!!


Very true. The protruding ends of products certainly looked externally like typical ham / sausage but that's as far as I will assert! Must say that the items do not seem to be moving too well (customer-wise that is :smile: ).

Also noticed some similar corn / pineapple puff pastries. I suppose the same conceptual criticisms would apply. Actually dared one of those after re-heating in the oven since date of production was current. Curious sort ot rawish (non-fried) flavour but, as yet, no other unwelcome :surprise: .

Slightly off-topic, Bread I guess does not fall into the compulsory chilled food rules - preservative control?. How about fruit cakes, doughnuts etc ?. And then we (soon) come to Xmas Pudding which i seem to recall being recommended to be stored in un-refrigerated conditions - alcohol control !? The list is endless.

added - hunger pangs drove me to a little googling, here's one poetic rely for Xmas pudding -

If you plan to store it for a long period of time, wrap the cake in brandy or wine-soaked towels, then in aluminum foil. For VERY long storage, 'bury' the liquor-soaked cakes in confectioners' sugar in a tightly covered tin, in a cool place. When wrapped in cloth and foil, saturated regularly with alcoholic liquors and kept in tightly closed containers or bags, a fruitcake may be kept for months or even years. Note that fruitcakes DO taste better with age! This is called 'ripening'. Liquor-based cakes may be stored several months in advance in a cool place prior to serving. Non-liquor soaked cakes may be kept in a cool place or in a refrigerator for short-term storage or a freezer for long storage. Fruitcakes freeze very well; however, they must be aged for at least few weeks before freezing, as they do not mellow and ripen while they are frozen.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081204130941AAyCd5z

Rgds / Charles.

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


GMO

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:45 AM

Slightly off-topic, Bread I guess does not fall into the compulsory chilled food rules - preservative control?. How about fruit cakes, doughnuts etc ?. And then we (soon) come to Xmas Pudding which i seem to recall being recommended to be stored in un-refrigerated conditions - alcohol control !? The list is endless.


I think breads, cakes etc with high fat, sugar (and sometimes alcohol) contents are unlikely to allow pathogenic growth, whereas cooked sausage meat is, so I don't think there are similarities at all. If you think about it the ingredients in a Christmas pudding are largely shelf stable anyway (apart from eggs which is debatable) so the Aw being low and high sugar etc will almost certainly render this pretty safe.

I was thinking the other day that I need to make our Christmas cake. After baking, it's kept in a box and I paint it every other day with Whisky.

:clap:

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 08:47 PM

Dear All,

I really regret, that I was not on the forum in September 2010 and so missed this interesting topic. I just found it because of the references to this topic in another thread by Charles C and GMO.

Sausage rolls in the Nerherlands are sold ambient (bakery department in supermarkets or bakeries). As a consumer (no bakery background) I have never considered this as not right. I would even buy a sausage roll, keep it on shelf for some days and then still eating it. I agree, it taste nicer, when consumed fresh, but IME no risks involved.
I would say that food safety is maintained by the low Aw and the heating treatment.

Maybe the pastry is more hygroscopic (correct English? Google does not help. I mean water attractant) than the 'sausage' and keeps the moisture away from the heated 'sausage'. i do not know how to explain my idea. If the pastry is water attracting the air between the pastry and the 'sausage' will be 'dry'. Due to the heat treatment the innersite of the sausage roll was sterile directly after baking. I am sure the surface of the sausage is dry. I actually do not know what I mean my self. It is more recording of a brainstorm.






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Madam A. D-tor

GMO

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 08:53 PM

Interesting thought and hygroscopic is the right word. It just doesn't seem logical to me - hence my post about it. I'd be interested to see the micro though. I have been proven wrong before... Posted Image





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