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#1 Zeeshan

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 10:01 AM

Dear all!

I want to get authentic information regarding following issues:

1- What is the authenticity and acceptability status of IHI Accredited Halal Certification?

2- Is IHI a legislative / regulatory authority or a private organization?

3- How many regions of the world have acknowledged IHI Accredited Certifications? Is there any issue for UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Euoropian Region and USA?

4- What type of research activities are used by Halal Certification Bodies? For example, whether they have any research facility to inventigate about suspected, mashbooh or haram ingredients or adultrations? Whether IHI check for such facility before accreditation?

Sorry for a long list of questions. Probably I should post them one-by-one but I did not want to handle four separate threads......

Thanks for your time.

Regards:
M.Zeeshan.


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#2 Charles Chew

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 03:50 PM

I want to get authentic information regarding following issues:

1- What is the authenticity and acceptability status of IHI Accredited Halal Certification?
There appears to be a global attempt to harmonize the Halal Standard but as in similar attempts made on the food safety standard, the road is long especially when you have different practices of the Mazhab amongst Shafie, maliki, Hambali and Hanafi

2- Is IHI a legislative / regulatory authority or a private organization?
As part of a member of the "Islamic Chamber of Commerce and Industry which is under the purview of OIC, it appears to have some degree of recognition

3- How many regions of the world have acknowledged IHI Accredited Certifications? Is there any issue for UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Euoropian Region and USA? Its a good question. I feel it is too early to evaluate the acceptance

4- What type of research activities are used by Halal Certification Bodies? For example, whether they have any research facility to inventigate about suspected, mashbooh or haram ingredients or adultrations? Whether IHI check for such facility before accreditation?

I think this depends on which country you refer to. I believe IFANCA, Australia / New Zealand for example have done a good job
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#3 Charles Chew

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 03:01 AM

Hi Zeeshan,

Just want to further add that the current approach used by IHI Alliance (although I have yet to see one yet) is to apply:

Halal Hazard Analysis; Halal Critical Control Point; .... a whole lot of similarities in a food safety management structure

The big difference in Halal just like Korsher is - you have to deal with the religious issue which is under the "syariah law"

Frankly, I have my doubts about its ability to harmonize a Halal Global Standard but I agree that it is necessary to apply "HACCP Principles" and the "Process Approach" in controlling and monitoring "najis" and managing "Halal Status" concerns.


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#4 Zeeshan

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 07:00 AM

Dear Charles!

Thanks for your valuable inputs.

Although I do not have a research on the difference in practices amongst Shafie, Maliki, Hambali and Hanafi fiqahs' but as a Muslim I believe that differences would be not so significant as all fiqahs' (school of thoughts) belives in Quran which has explicitly defined the Haram and Halal boundries. I always wonder, however, why not all community representatives sit together and solve their conflicts once for all.

BTW, if there are differences, as we know they are, on what basis IHI and Malaysian Halal Standards and Codex Halal Guidelines are founded?

Regards:

M.Zeeshan.


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#5 Biss

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:08 AM

Hi,

Our facility is Halal certified from MUI, Indonesia. their approved list of cert. agencies attched for your reference.

Attached Files


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#6 Charles Chew

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 03:24 PM

Hi,

Our facility is Halal certified from MUI, Indonesia. their approved list of cert. agencies attched for your reference.

Hi, Would you like to explain why your company went for MUI since your company is located in India. The reason why I ask is I remembered clearly when a German product was certified Halal by MUI and was subsequently exported to Malaysia, the Halal cert. was rejected by because the authority may have suspected some concerns as the certification could have been Halal assessed in Germany by an approved Halal Inspection Body.......mutual recognition and seamless integration appears to be a major barrier.

Could you also tell us more about the Halal audit criteria applied by MUI Halal Inspector?

Edited by Charles Chew, 28 September 2010 - 03:51 AM.

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#7 Biss

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:21 AM

Hi,

Presently we have certified Halal from the Indian Agency and MUI indonesia.

Our indian Halal certification is not accepted by the indonesian and malaysian customers.

our customers are insisted in other halal certification recognized by their halal agency. thats why we have obtained the second certification.

sometimes Halal & Kosher certification acceptance by different agencies are too complicated


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#8 Charles Chew

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:54 AM

Biss, your reason for going to MUI is clear but I am still interested in their Halal Audit Plan or procedures. I believe it will help create more awareness through this forum which Zeeshan had so thoughtfully put up.

For your information, Halal certification from "Jamiat-E-Ulama-E-Hind is accepted by Malaysian Authority and I believe accepted generally elsewhere. You may go to: http://www.halalcommittee-jum.org/

They are in Mumbai and is the only Indian Halal Certification Agency recognized by Jakim, Malaysia


Edited by Charles Chew, 28 September 2010 - 10:54 AM.

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#9 AS NUR

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 01:51 AM



IMO .. Halal certification regulation is depend on the country regualtion.. In Indonesia we have some Halal certicate from other country that accepted by MUI.. including JAKIM from Malaysia, CICOT (thailand),IFANCA (USA) etc..the list certication bodythat accepted by MUI yaou can see at the website halalmui.org

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#10 Charles Chew

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:47 AM

1- What is the authenticity and acceptability status of IHI Accredited Halal Certification?

2- Is IHI a legislative / regulatory authority or a private organization?

3- How many regions of the world have acknowledged IHI Accredited Certifications? Is there any issue for UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Euoropian Region and USA?

4- What type of research activities are used by Halal Certification Bodies? For example, whether they have any research facility to inventigate about suspected, mashbooh or haram ingredients or adultrations? Whether IHI check for such facility before accreditation?


The issue of Halal Certification recognition is not a concern here as per questions raised by Zeeshan. Generally, I believe there is an interest to explore whats happening around the world with regards to their respective view on a globally harmonized Halal standard that is currently set in motion including activities that are related to determining the Halal certification process base on country specific vis-a-vis Global Halal Standard as they are continuously developed by the OIC.

What are the issues and difficulties currently faced by various authorities pertaining to i.e. presence of alcohol with no intoxicating effects in food as otherwise derived from natural fermentation processes and if this is a Halal Critical Point - what is the tolerant level; what is the impact of such a decision on non-alcohol-based cosmetics and is a Halal guideline on cosmetic necessary, can paper cups or other forms of packaging materials be certified Halal as in BRC-IOP, etc?
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#11 Biss

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:08 AM

Biss, your reason for going to MUI is clear but I am still interested in their Halal Audit Plan or procedures. I believe it will help create more awareness through this forum which Zeeshan had so thoughtfully put up.

For your information, Halal certification from "Jamiat-E-Ulama-E-Hind is accepted by Malaysian Authority and I believe accepted generally elsewhere. You may go to: http://www.halalcommittee-jum.org/

They are in Mumbai and is the only Indian Halal Certification Agency recognized by Jakim, Malaysia


Hi Charles,

thanks for the info. JUM halal certificate is not accepted by MUI. so we are forced to maintain two halal certificates. As per the requirement of MUI, we need to develop a Halal Assurance system. you can get the guidelines from halalmui.org website
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#12 Zeeshan

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:22 AM

For your information, Halal certification from "Jamiat-E-Ulama-E-Hind is accepted by Malaysian Authority and I believe accepted generally elsewhere. You may go to: http://www.halalcommittee-jum.org/

They are in Mumbai and is the only Indian Halal Certification Agency recognized by Jakim, Malaysia


Interesting news :smile: !

But, as Charles said - it would be more interesting to know about Halal Audit Plan or procedures. Though I have very little knowledge and information about internal & external activities related to Halal Certification (I am learning through some sources, IFSQN is one of them) I have many doubts about "serious" research work and "claims" of Halal Certification Bodies regarding halal assurance before certification. Recently, SANHA's credibility become disputed/questionable at some level in Pakistan when they certified Lays Chips as Halal. Also, I have heard that some CB's are considering to accept or accepted fully automatic mechanical slaughtering with auto generated 'takbeer' as Halal and some have accepted or considering use of Narcotics before slaughter as Halal practice. Modernization and change for betterment is good, but as a simple straightforward muslim, I will never accept such "modifications" in Islam that are doubtful or questinable as we muslims are ordered to leave those things which are doubtful and accept only those which are obvious, clear and authentic as per Quran and Sunnah.

Also, I did not figure out the actual cost of halal certification by Jamiat Ulama - E - Maharashtra. The Halal logo printing cost structure is so confusing for me. For example, if I have 30 products to be certified as Halal, what would be the total cost of cerification?

Hope this discussion will reveals many other aspects of Halal Cerfication.

If some other members of this forum have got or are in-process of Halal Certification, please tell us about their Halal Certification and Accreditation Bodies and share their experiences.

Regards:
M.Zeeshan.
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#13 Charles Chew

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:12 AM

thanks for the info. JUM halal certificate is not accepted by MUI. so we are forced to maintain two halal certificates.

Hi Biss, It is these sorts of disparity in Halal Certification recognition that is going to hinder the establishing a Global Halal Standard. I am not going to talk about MUI's Halal Assurance Program on this thread (perhaps, we should open another thread as this involves the control of najis which is basically HACCP)

Also, I did not figure out the actual cost of halal certification by Jamiat Ulama - E - Maharashtra. The Halal logo printing cost structure is so confusing for me. For example, if I have 30 products to be certified as Halal, what would be the total cost of cerification

Zeeshan, It is sad that Halal is based on product certification basis when it really should be process base. It costs a lot of money to renew a Halal Certificate every year and this is another inhibitive factor that governing bodies should consider revamping its approach. Probably cost more to maintain a Halal system than a HACCP system. :dunno:
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#14 Charles Chew

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:19 AM

:off_topic: I meant to register for a Halal Audit Training Course next month but after the discourse with Biss and Zeeshan, I have decided the global markets are not ready for a massive change and neither are the authorities around the world ready to accept a common approach with so many disparities in practices amongst the practicing Muslim countries. Its going to take a while for the authorities to "digest"

One things is for sure. I believe GFSI is heading in the right direction for a "global food safety" platform.
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#15 Simon

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 12:42 PM

There are no areas on the forums to pigeon hole Halal topics. In the past we had a dedicated Halal forum, but I think it was a bit before it's time and didn’t get used much. If you guys thought it would be useful to have a dedicated Halal forum again at some point I would happily set one up. I’ll leave it up to you to decide.


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#16 vina wiyono

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:20 PM

I'm Rahayu,Halal Auditor from Indonesia also Food Safety Auditor
Now we have a new policy for company who will get our halal cert, they have to implement HAS (HALAL Assurancse System) . There are 2 categories of implementing this HAS. For a new company they have to submit halal policy of company that signed by top management before we conduct the halal audit to the company site. It is minimum requirement . after six months getting our Halal Cert (if they pass based on our requirement for products and their facilities) they have to submit Halal Manual to our office.
for the companies who will renew the Halal Cert they have to get score minimum B for HAS implementation, then they will get Halal Certificate So for the moment our organization issue 2 certificates (HAS cert and Product Cert) for HAS Cert will issue and renew each year and for Product every two years

We as auditor only do the audit as fact finder, we will not give recommendation to company on halal/haram status of their products except it is already clear pork containg product. And we will discuss all the finding in auditor level meeting based on Fatwa of MUI (the top level in our organization).

I hope i share some useful information in this forum...

Rahayu


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#17 Charles Chew

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 11:38 PM

I'm Rahayu,Halal Auditor from Indonesia also Food Safety Auditor
Now we have a new policy for company who will get our halal cert, they have to implement HAS (HALAL Assurancse System) .

Hi Rahayu,
Thank you for your inputs which have been enlightening. I have always known MUI to be well ahead of other countries in the Halal Standard development / certification process. I hope you can participate more and tell us about your country's on-going activities in this area.

Simon - This thread is getting a mixture of cross-activities but as ref. previous Halal thread, it still lacks participation. Lets wait and see!

Attached is a copy of MUI-HAS which should throw in a fair bit of interests.

Attached Files


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#18 Biss

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:23 AM

Dear Zeeshan,

JUM halal certification cost for one manufacturing location will be Rs.14000/- + 2 auditors travel and accomodation for 1 day excluding the logo printing charges (optional).

for logo printing for 30 products i belive it will cost - 30 x 2250 = 67, 500/-

if all ingredients used for the manufacuring of lays is Halal, then the lays chips can be Halal.


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#19 Zeeshan

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:57 PM

Zeeshan, It is sad that Halal is based on product certification basis when it really should be process base. It costs a lot of money to renew a Halal Certificate every year and this is another inhibitive factor that governing bodies should consider revamping its approach. Probably cost more to maintain a Halal system than a HACCP system. :dunno:


100% agreed. Sadly said, it seems openly that after assessing a large scale opportunity of billion dollar Halal Food Market, many local bodies and Halal CB's are just blindly running to capture the opportunity without realizing and fulfilling the basic requirements and without focusing to gather on a unified international platform to give their clients the benefits of mutual acceptance and global recognition.

:off_topic: I meant to register for a Halal Audit Training Course next month but after the discourse with Biss and Zeeshan, I have decided the global markets are not ready for a massive change and neither are the authorities around the world ready to accept a common approach with so many disparities in practices amongst the practicing Muslim countries. Its going to take a while for the authorities to "digest"


Originally I was trying to figure out whether it is good/feasible for the time being to have a certificate with IHI accreditation or we should look for some other options? I was assuming before this discussion that "Malaysian Halal Certified" tag was count a lot and accepted throughout the world including Muslim and non-Muslim countries. Whether I was wrong??? What is the credibility and business value of Malaysian Halal Standard?

@ Simon - Agreed with Charles that this and other related threads showed lack of participation, however I wish to group all of them together under a sub-forum "Halal Certification". I recommend to change the title of category/forum "miscellaneous food safety standards" as "miscellaneous standards" and linked this sub-forum there. Hopefully some day in future halal certification would be a major concern in food manufacturing.

Dear Zeeshan,

JUM halal certification cost for one manufacturing location will be Rs.14000/- + 2 auditors travel and accomodation for 1 day excluding the logo printing charges (optional).

for logo printing for 30 products i belive it will cost - 30 x 2250 = 67, 500/-

if all ingredients used for the manufacuring of lays is Halal, then the lays chips can be Halal.


Dear Biss,
Thanks for information.
Regards:
M.Zeeshan.
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#20 Charles Chew

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 04:02 AM

Sadly said, it seems openly that after assessing a large scale opportunity of billion dollar Halal Food Market, many local bodies and Halal CB's are just blindly running to capture the opportunity without realizing and fulfilling the basic requirements and without focusing to gather on a unified international platform to give their clients the benefits of mutual acceptance and global recognition.

Hi Zeeshan,
Despite the craze to capture a piece of the pie on the apparent trend of a huge global Halal market out there, the lack of a unified platform (i.e. IRCA, RAB-QSA, GFSI, etc) which should comprise of independent individual professionals and scholars ..(not some politically-minded goons), I am afraid its going to be "pie in the sky" instead.

I believe Halal has not achieved the level of importance to be counted as a vital social obligation internationally but instead serves the Non-Muslim food industries to "feed" the market needs.

I have no statistics to support my view (not my area) but I believe the biggest Halal food players including Islamic Financial Service Providers in the world are controlled by Non-Muslims.

Which leaves me to wonder why in certain countries, it is necessary that key members of the Halal Team must be Muslims ..... and subsequently, make exception for Non-Muslim country where it is all right not to have Non-Muslims in the team if one cannot be found. Too much ambiguity :dunno:

(If i may borrow from GFSI - "Once Halal Certified, Accepted by All") - I wonder if this will ever happen. Maybe it can be GFSI-Halal supported by all major retailers! No that will not be possible.

As long as we do not have a common Halal Audit / Inspection Procedures with a common interpretation of a Halal Audit Standard - I strongly believe nothing is going to happen.

Edited by Charles Chew, 01 October 2010 - 04:05 AM.

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#21 Zeeshan

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 05:33 AM

Dear Charles!

My questions are again skipped :dunno:.

1- Originally I was trying to figure out whether it is good/feasible FOR THE TIME BEING to have a certificate with IHI accreditation or we should look for some other options?

2- I was assuming before this discussion that "Malaysian Halal Certified" tag was count a lot and accepted throughout the world including Muslim and non-Muslim countries. Whether I was wrong??? What is the credibility and business value of Malaysian Halal Standard?"

Regards:
M.Zeeshan


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#22 Charles Chew

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 09:01 AM

Dear Charles!

My questions are again skipped :dunno:.

1- Originally I was trying to figure out whether it is good/feasible FOR THE TIME BEING to have a certificate with IHI accreditation or we should look for some other options?

2- I was assuming before this discussion that "Malaysian Halal Certified" tag was count a lot and accepted throughout the world including Muslim and non-Muslim countries. Whether I was wrong??? What is the credibility and business value of Malaysian Halal Standard?"

Regards:
M.Zeeshan

Hi Zeeshan,
Actually, your questions were answered but not in direct manner.

1. Personally, IMHO a Halal certification from Jakim is not going to give your company a significant head start over your competitors since a global Halal Standard is not anywhere close to a common agreement amongst the Muslim countries yet. In other words, you will probably end up like Biss having two Halal Certificates simple because the other country does not recognize it while the other one does. (I believe IHI only provides technical support in developing Halal-Based Standards)

2. Yes you may be right about the credibility of the "Malaysian Halal Certificate" afterall when the CAC/GL 24-1997 (Guidelines on Halal) was established, the Malaysian Halal Standard was the key reference.

But again IMHO, that credibility has eroded over the years simply because MS1500:2004 (Current Malaysian Halal Standard) requires the application of MS1480:2007 which is basically Codex CAC-RCP 1-1969. However, this approach is hardly practiced and the Halal Audit Procedures remain unclear.

While on the other hand, MUI (Indonesia) is IMO way ahead and appears to be more serious than the other Halal Certification Agencies given their approach using a HAS programme. As Halal is basically at a cross road - it is perhaps wise to wait and see!

I hope my response meets your expectations.
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#23 Zeeshan

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:06 AM

I hope my response meets your expectations.


Yes of course!:smile:

I have some other relevant points in my mind but I think first I should give them a second thought and start with a new thread.

BTW, thanks for your precious time. Also thanks to BISS for giving valuable inputs on this thread.

Regards.

M.Zeeshan.
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#24 Charles Chew

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 02:34 AM

IMO .. Halal certification regulation is depend on the country regualtion.

Hi As Nur, Your comment is so true and I believe that is exactly whats holding back the progress in setting global Halal Standards.

They are institutions that use "Haram Hazard Analysis / Haram Critical Control Point" while others support "Halal Hazard Analysis / Halal Control Point" .... are we a long way from a "home run"
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