13 replies to this topic

[Inesa]

Dear members of this Forum,

Many of you are working in food industry, areresponsible for the safety of your products and know about the importance ofpersonal hygiene, especially, of good handwashing practices.

My question is: Problems influencing the establishmentof good handwashing behavior.

There can be health, environmental, cultural or otherproblems that you maybe experienced.

I’ve read some places (can find references later ifneeded) that some religions as Islam forbid the use of alcohol, so Muslims arenot allowed to disinfect their hands with alcohol based gels. Is it a myth?

Are here any of you, who have a poor access to wateror for some reasons have an extreme water saving politics that might influence properhandwashing procedures? Or maybe you’ve been traveling and saw some shocking “anti-handwashing”things in third World countries? How could those problems be solved?

A healthy skin is essential in maintaining good hand hygiene. Do you ever check/ask if your employees are allergic to latex used for protection gloves or allergic to a soap containing chlorhexidine?

Are there any other problems in establishing good handwashing practice you have experienced?

I would be very thankful for sharing your experience withme.

Best regards

a student

[beatlevi]

Hi Inesa, we often have muslim workers from a private agency for our bakery needs and nobody refused to disinfect their hand with Gojo (alcohol gel sanitizer)


everybody wash their hands before entry in the plant and disinfect their hands before entry in each dept .They disinfect their hands before taking gloves.


Here we use vinyl gloves so we never have problems for allergic and our soap is made with triclosan 0.25% and never have problems with workers (dry hands, or else)

ciao!

[GMO]

I've worked with a lot of muslim employees in shop floor and management levels and never had anyone refuse to use the gels on that basis although it does make sense that some people may want to avoid them. Personally I think they're great and give you a better chance of getting clear hand swab results but they're not the be all and end all. If good technique is used, antibacterial handwash is perfectly fine on its own. In fact the gels can give a false sense of security (I reference healthcare on that one!)

[Anne Z]

Inesa as for problems with hand washing... IME people want to be fast with everything as with hand washing. If you wash your hands too fast there can be still germs etc on your hands. Of course there all kinds of solutions on solving that problem like Safewayhs Just look at a random toilet in your office / school how many people are washing their hands...and if they do wash them how long....

GMO you said handgels gave give a false impression...what do you mean? We use Kensosept- G (handgel) and 'home made' desinfectans (alcohol and demi water). Some people experience dry hands afther the use of the 'home made' desinfactans that's why we bought the handgel.

[Mike Green]

I have never come across anyone refusing to use gel-other than those with existing skin conditions which would be aggravated by its use.

My personal opinion(and experience) is that there is far too much reliance on gels and sanitisers at the expense of effective hand washing technique-(going as far as completely replacing it!)

I haven't looked at the research in a while-but on my last look i wasn't particularly impressed with the effectiveness of most- or the validity of some of the claims (99.9% reduction in laboratory conditions- which is pretty poor so how much less effective is it on my hands!)- though I see some brands are now claiming a 5 log reduction and effectiveness against norovirus and spore formers

it would be interesting if anyone has any links to recent research?

To be honest if someone refused to use alcohol based gel- I wouldn't be too worried as long as their handwashing technique was up to scratch!

Regards
Mike

[tsmith7858]

From the stand point of ever having anyone refuse, I would say no and we have muslims working at our facility.

However, we have recently been studying Halal to determine if we want to certify and several sites I have been to have suggested that alcohol based sanitizers (hand washing and equipment sanitizing) are Haram and therefore not allowed. There are several Halal sanitizers now available for that reason.

[GMO]

No links to recent research but you put the point I was trying to put across far more eloquently Mike. I did hear that in NHS hospitals there is a huge reliance on gels (sometimes being the only method of hand cleansing before seeing to a patient) and clostridium difficile spores are unaffected by gels. Would make sense that it wouldn't touch a spore former but I'd be interested to hear otherwise?

The thing is though gels can only be effective on clean hands as they don't remove soiling so it may be a moot point. I'd always rather see a Doctor wash their hands personally and the same goes with food. I think the gels are a "mop up" for bad handwashing practice.

[Mike Green]

No links to recent research but you put the point I was trying to put across far more eloquently Mike. I did hear that in NHS hospitals there is a huge reliance on gels (sometimes being the only method of hand cleansing before seeing to a patient) and clostridium difficile spores are unaffected by gels. Would make sense that it wouldn't touch a spore former but I'd be interested to hear otherwise?

The thing is though gels can only be effective on clean hands as they don't remove soiling so it may be a moot point. I'd always rather see a Doctor wash their hands personally and the same goes with food. I think the gels are a "mop up" for bad handwashing practice.

Yeah- I do a lot of work in the NHS and as far as handwashing goes gels are pretty much it for most staff for everything other than the operating theatre.-and it shows in the HCAI incidences

The research I have seen in the past has pretty much confirmed that norovirus and c.diff are unaffected by most gels-and ol' Heston pretty much demonstrated that theory in practice-at least with regard to the norovirus!

However i have seen recent claims in advertising material of 5 log reduction and effectiveness against C diff- but no research(and i'm a practical geezer so i would like to see research on effectiveness on hands not in a petri dish!

regards
Mike

[GMO]

Yeah- I do a lot of work in the NHS and as far as handwashing goes gels are pretty much it for most staff for everything other than the operating theatre.-and it shows in the HCAI incidences

The research I have seen in the past has pretty much confirmed that norovirus and c.diff are unaffected by most gels-and ol' Heston pretty much demonstrated that theory in practice-at least with regard to the norovirus!

However i have seen recent claims in advertising material of 5 log reduction and effectiveness against C diff- but no research(and i'm a practical geezer so i would like to see research on effectiveness on hands not in a petri dish!

regards
Mike

Totally agree. Old Heston has had himself in the news more than once on food safety. Tsk tsk!

So how did you get involved in the NHS work? I would love to do some work with the NHS. Every time I visit a hospital it confuses me why they don't use food industry expertise. For example, in the birth centre I recently gave birth in, I spent ages (in labour) looking at their wooden skirting boards thinking "why don't they have an easy cleanable coved floor to wall join made out of a sturdy material as you would have in a food factory?" I probably should have had my mind on other things.

[Mike Green]

Totally agree. Old Heston has had himself in the news more than once on food safety. Tsk tsk!

So how did you get involved in the NHS work? I would love to do some work with the NHS. Every time I visit a hospital it confuses me why they don't use food industry expertise. For example, in the birth centre I recently gave birth in, I spent ages (in labour) looking at their wooden skirting boards thinking "why don't they have an easy cleanable coved floor to wall join made out of a sturdy material as you would have in a food factory?" I probably should have had my mind on other things.

Hi- not only do they not use food industry expertise-they don't even use NHS expertise!!-all of the research and staffing (and even the money) they need is there-it wouldn't cost any more to do it right than it does at the moment to do it totally wrong!! the thing that worries me is not so much the structure of the building(though as you say there is significant room for improvement!)- it is even though everyone recieves handwash training and Infection control training-and there are posters everywhere proclaiming that 'our staff scrub up well why don't you' IMEX- they don't- ward sinks now are almost obsolete!!- its all gonna change though!!(hopefully very soon)because it just ain't working!

As far as getting the work-i used to work in the NHS as a trainer for primary care staff-which helps-( i am now in the commercial sector)- the contracts are all put out to tender-you usually get accepted onto a framework-then have to bid in 'mini-competitions' to win the actual work-unfortunately after the various spending reviews and resulting cuts though most of the work is 'postponed' for the forseeable future-so to be honest probably not the best time to 'enter the market'

Mike

[GMO]

Hi- not only do they not use food industry expertise-they don't even use NHS expertise!!-all of the research and staffing (and even the money) they need is there-it wouldn't cost any more to do it right than it does at the moment to do it totally wrong!! the thing that worries me is not so much the structure of the building(though as you say there is significant room for improvement!)- it is even though everyone recieves handwash training and Infection control training-and there are posters everywhere proclaiming that 'our staff scrub up well why don't you' IMEX- they don't- ward sinks now are almost obsolete!!- its all gonna change though!!(hopefully very soon)because it just ain't working!

As far as getting the work-i used to work in the NHS as a trainer for primary care staff-which helps-( i am now in the commercial sector)- the contracts are all put out to tender-you usually get accepted onto a framework-then have to bid in 'mini-competitions' to win the actual work-unfortunately after the various spending reviews and resulting cuts though most of the work is 'postponed' for the forseeable future-so to be honest probably not the best time to 'enter the market'

Mike

Good point. Just interested really. If you spent a week in my factory, you would either have your hands swabbed or see someone have their hands swabbed to check on cleaning technique. Never seen anyone swabbing hands in a hospital, let alone swabbing the environment! Never seen an audit. If no-one is checking then compliance falls. It's human nature.

It is a very good point that it could be done more cheaply if it were done right. The thing which is probably not easy to change is the resistance to change in the public sector. From the outside looking in, it does seem incredibly slow to move vs. the private sector. No-one breathing down their necks I guess (at least not on the things which really matter).

I remember when under Labour there was this big "deep cleaning" thing going on in hospitals. I said at the time that the more important thing would be to get the right procedures in for personal hygiene and ongoing cleaning rather than some deep cleaning farce that's just for show. Sure, deep cleaning is important but that's never the thing which stops bacterial spread IME, it's the day to day stuff which does that.

I'd love to have 1 month and a small budget just to see if I could make a change to one ward. I bet any food professional could do a decent job. Or at least take a health minister to a ward then take them to a food factory and ask them why the controls in the latter are more rigorous.

Anyway, I've really digressed from the subject now. Sorry about that.

[Mike Green]

Good point. Just interested really. If you spent a week in my factory, you would either have your hands swabbed or see someone have their hands swabbed to check on cleaning technique. Never seen anyone swabbing hands in a hospital, let alone swabbing the environment! Never seen an audit. If no-one is checking then compliance falls. It's human nature.

It is a very good point that it could be done more cheaply if it were done right. The thing which is probably not easy to change is the resistance to change in the public sector. From the outside looking in, it does seem incredibly slow to move vs. the private sector. No-one breathing down their necks I guess (at least not on the things which really matter).

I remember when under Labour there was this big "deep cleaning" thing going on in hospitals. I said at the time that the more important thing would be to get the right procedures in for personal hygiene and ongoing cleaning rather than some deep cleaning farce that's just for show. Sure, deep cleaning is important but that's never the thing which stops bacterial spread IME, it's the day to day stuff which does that.

I'd love to have 1 month and a small budget just to see if I could make a change to one ward. I bet any food professional could do a decent job. Or at least take a health minister to a ward then take them to a food factory and ask them why the controls in the latter are more rigorous.

Anyway, I've really digressed from the subject now. Sorry about that.

I think you would get really frustrated even in a month!-
this topic really deserves a thread of its own!- and to be fair to the original poster I'll get in back on track with this PDF-which is a view on healthcare/ hygiene from a muslim perspective- I think it was originally from the lancet circa 2006

Attached Files

•  Muslim%20Healthcare.pdf   69.72KB   49 downloads

Edited by Mike Green, 30 October 2010 - 05:02 PM.

[Inesa]

Hi again,

Thanks to all for sharing info. I was gone for some time- had exams in Hygiene&Sanitation and Food law and quality management, so I was crazy busy (have 2 small kids and no husband (to disturb me ) ), but results are excellent!

This forum is a gold mine for me. It's so interesting to read post of professionals around a World and find some valuable info.

Thanks once more!!!

Best regards

p.s. Mike G, I used your last topic's info for my exam slides preparation.

[Mike Green]

Hi again,

Thanks to all for sharing info. I was gone for some time- had exams in Hygiene&Sanitation and Food law and quality management, so I was crazy busy (have 2 small kids and no husband (to disturb me ) ), but results are excellent!

This forum is a gold mine for me. It's so interesting to read post of professionals around a World and find some valuable info.

Thanks once more!!!

Best regards

p.s. Mike G, I used your last topic's info for my exam slides preparation.

Pleased it all went well for you
Regards
Mike