17 replies to this topic

[dimis]

Hi everyone.

I am working as a QA in a retail company which produces and sells pastry products.
I am having difficulties with implementing the haccp plan.
Furthermore, I want to ask if there is possibility to change the frequency of a CCp?

[Charles.C]

Dear dimis,

Furthermore, I want to ask if there is possibility to change the frequency of a CCp

Not sure what you mean by "frequency" ? Are you referring to the monitoring ? You probably need to clarify a little, eg what is the specific CCP, what kind of monitoring / critical limit ??

Rgds / Charles.C

BTW, Welcome to the forum!

[Fenric]

Think I might understand what you mean, if you mean changing the frquency of monitoring, this can be done providing you validate that the altered frequency is not detrimental to the food safety of the product in question

As for the difficult is it getting people to accept the plan or the food safety plan is complex and difficult to explain to people

[HACCP Builder]

Hi everyone.

I am working as a QA in a retail company which produces and sells pastry products.
I am having difficulties with implementing the haccp plan.
Furthermore, I want to ask if there is possibility to change the frequency of a CCp?

Hello, I understand you challenge but not quite sure of your question on changing the frequency of your CCP? And, it also depends on what you are doing...like hot holding, cooling etc...

If you can provide me with a little more detail I may be of help.

[PaulieB]

Hi Dimis
I work for a Pastry goods manufacturer in New Zealand. Not sure what type of products you make, but we mostly produce meat pies, sausage rolls, pizzas, muffins etc. Our CCP's are at the meat cooking stage, so making sure that the cooking temp of fillings reaches the right temperature, the next CCP is at the baking stage, so that same thing, making sure that the final baked temperature is correct. Our records show that for years we have never had an out of spec reading for the CCP's, so at our next audit I am going to ask the auditor if we can change from recording at every cook or bake, to maybe twice per shift. In New Zealand, if we want to change a CCP it has to be approved by the regulatory authority (NZFSA) before you can change it.
We are also considering making our cooling stage for fillings and baked product a CCP. At this stage we do record and monitor them, but it's not a CCP....yet.
Cheers
Paulie B

Hi everyone.

I am working as a QA in a retail company which produces and sells pastry products.
I am having difficulties with implementing the haccp plan.
Furthermore, I want to ask if there is possibility to change the frequency of a CCp?

[QLD]

By memory during my pie making days we had meat intake, meat
storage, cooking and cooling as our critical steps.
What CCP are you looking at reducing?


 

[Charles.C]

Dear PaulieB,

thks for yr interesting comments.

(maybe) slightly OT -

Our CCP's are at the meat cooking stage, so making sure that the cooking temp of fillings reaches the right temperature, the next CCP is at the baking stage, so that same thing, making sure that the final baked temperature is correct.

I am curious as to why the first step / associated CCP was considered necessary ? For example as compared to this (UK) origin example which i presume refers to a single heat treatment application -

 HACCP Plan template cooked meat pie.pdf   60.22KB   612 downloads

@QLD - if yr comment is an interpretation of Dimis's post that a reduction in total number of CCPs is sought, you may well be correct

Rgds / Charles.C

[PaulieB]

Hi Charles C
When we first developed our FSP, it was determined that we needed to prove that any raw meats were throughly cooked, so the temperature testing of the cooked fillings is our first CCP. The second step was necessary because we actually chill our fillings overnight, and use them cold for the following day's production. Because of this cooling / storage stage, it was decided that this should also be a CCP. However even if we used fillings straight after being cooked, I'm pretty sure that there would still be a requirement for us to test and record temperatures of the cooking process.
Cheers
PB

quote name='Charles.C' timestamp='1291937786' post='40191']
Dear PaulieB,

thks for yr interesting comments.

(maybe) slightly OT -



I am curious as to why the first step / associated CCP was considered necessary ? For example as compared to this (UK) origin example which i presume refers to a single heat treatment application -

 HACCP Plan template cooked meat pie.pdf   60.22KB   612 downloads

@QLD - if yr comment is an interpretation of Dimis's post that a reduction in total number of CCPs is sought, you may well be correct

Rgds / Charles.C
[/quote]

[QLD]

some relevant information for AU food standards code.....

Cooling potentially hazardous food
If you cook potentially hazardous food that you intend to cool and use later, you need to cool the food to 5°C or colder as quickly as possible. There may be food poisoning bacteria in the food even though it has been cooked. Faster cooling times limit the time when these bacteria are able to grow or form toxins.

The standards require food to be cooled from 60°C to 21°C in a maximum of two hours and from 21°C to 5°C within a further maximum period of four hours. Alternatively, if you want to cool food over a longer time period you must be able to show that you have a safe alternative system in place.

If you don’t know how fast your food is cooling, use a probe thermometer to measure the warmest part of the food – usually in the centre. For information on the use of thermometers, see the fact sheet ‘Thermometers and using them with potentially hazardous food’.

To chill food quickly; divide it into smaller portions in shallow containers. Take care not to contaminate the food as you do it.


Reheating previously cooked and cooled potentially hazardous food
If you reheat previously cooked and cooled potentially hazardous food, you must reheat it rapidly to 60°C or hotter. Ideally, you should aim to reheat food to 60°C within a maximum of two hours to minimise the amount of time that food is at temperatures that favour the growth of bacteria or formation of toxins.

This requirement applies only to potentially hazardous food that you want to hold hot, for example, on your stove or in a food display unit. It does not apply to food you reheat and then immediately serve to customers for consumption, for example, in a restaurant or a take away shop.


How can a business comply with the temperature control requirements?
The simplest way to meet the requirements is to ensure that potentially hazardous food is received, stored, displayed or transported either very cold (5°C or colder) or very hot (60°C or hotter). Potentially hazardous food should also be cooled and reheated quickly and prepared in as short a time as possible.

If for some reason you do not wish to, or are unable to store, display or transport food at 5°C or colder, or at 60°C or hotter, or meet the cooling and reheating time and temperature requirements, you must be able to show that you have a safe alternative system in place.

[Charles.C]

Dear PaulieB/QLD,

Thanks for the responses.

I confess that I hv never made a meat pie or any related object. I did a bit of googling on the topic and was immediately submerged in a pie world!.

My conclusion is that the majority of recipes certainly precook the ingredients but definitely not all (including Aussie products!). However the reasons seem to vary – many choices (either way) are seemingly unrelated to safety factors, eg improved control of pie crust, better flavour of ingredients, reduction of water content, the list is lengthy.

One micro.survey of Aussie meat pies is below. 94% used precooked fillings. Both styles were apparently acceptable options. Overall comments were complimentary bar some (predictable) reservations as previous posted here on cooling of precooked filling (see next example also).

 micro.meat pies.pdf   877.42KB   259 downloads

This UK link includes a flowchart-hazard analysis (but not CCPs) of precooked filling used directly / delayed (see pg 16 et seq.). Obviously there are more opportunities for problems (eg spore-related) as the steps increase.

 fsa baking guide.pdf   777.66KB   419 downloads

The Cornish Pasty (sort of pie?)(which I dislike intensely) is one famous example of using raw ingredients only (maybe that was the reason!).
http://www.ladyshrik...ipes/id178.html

The question of validation of different styles is rarely considered. For an elegantly detailed analysis (challenge tests) of a sort of analogous situation, stuffed/unstuffed Xmas turkey, see the attachment below.

 xmas turkey.pdf   497.21KB   153 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

[dimis]

I found a system that is rather complex and people find it difficult to understand.
My only CCP is thermal of products (pasteurisation, oven baking)
I also found heating of chocolate (bain marie) to 42C as CCP, could this be possible?
I wanted to change the frequency of monitoring of CCP, after validating the method.
I will also need some help with traceability as there is no ERP system, and it is rather complicated,
as we produce 47 different products.

[Fenric]

Hi Dimis

I know that feeling well, I have recently moved jobs and have inherited a food safety with 120 CCPs and an animal feed safety system of 50 CCPs.

The thermal processing stages make sense from the aspect of reduction of the microbioloigcal load, regarding the chocolate (having never worked with the stuff, only milk, cheese and beer!),the main concern would be the presence of Salmonella, which seems to be quite well documented upon the internet, so think it indeed valid.

If you are looking at changing the frequency, check the historical analysis undertaken on site of the chocolate for microbiological content. This should give you a good idea of the problem or lack of problem specific to your equipment and factory conditions.

Sort thye food safety HACCP and CCP problem before attempting to deal with traceability, with a robust food safety system you will feel more confident to undertake other aspects of the system

[GMO]

The thermal processing stages make sense from the aspect of reduction of the microbioloigcal load, regarding the chocolate (having never worked with the stuff, only milk, cheese and beer!),the main concern would be the presence of Salmonella, which seems to be quite well documented upon the internet, so think it indeed valid.

Nope, the Salmonella hazard in the chocolate should be resolved at the cocoa roasting stage before it even becomes chocolate. Heating it to 42 wouldn't help kill Salmonellae anyway. I would suggest supplier quality assurance (ie the supplier ensures the chocolate is Salmonellae free) as your control for the chocolate.

[Charles.C]

Dear dimis,

If you are seeking accurate advice, i recommend you post some flowcharts otherwise our comments may well be irrelevant although we are still very happy to discuss.

Regarding monitoring of chocolate / Salmonella, what more can one sadly say than "think Cadburys".

Rgds / Charles.C

[MQA]

Hi Dimis,

Remember why the CCP exists to begin with: it is a critical control point to prevent potential safety risks. From your flow chart, if a CCP is controlled at one step, there is no need for a repeat of the CCP at the next step on the proviso this next steps does not invite new risks. When creating a CCP, discuss with your team if it can be controlled further down the process.

With each CCP are monitoring records. Ensure validation of the monitoring records; are they capturing the goal of the CCP? A CCP should only be changed if there is a track record / guarantee there are no critical safety risks.

Both PaulieB & Fenric have supplied valid points and info.

Do you have a solid risk assessment matrix for identifying, controlling and evaluating your CCP's? I find this helps me immensely for implementing HACCP.

Good luck with it all.

[monor]

Dear \ sir
if you want any thing related to HACCP in bakery you can e_mail me at. I'm quality section head in modern akeries company
thanks

Edited by Simon, 04 January 2011 - 04:19 PM.
Removed email address

[Simon]

Dear \ sir
if you want any thing related to HACCP in bakery you can e_mail me at. I'm quality section head in modern akeries company
thanks

Dera Monor, We discuss issues directly on the forum as the information is then available for all members to learn from.

Please share your ideas here.

Regards,
Simon

[Khame]

Hello everyone,

 

I'm a new member and very happy to be part of this network. Its very very helpful. I have already been able to get some useful information.Keep sharing please...

 

I have an assignment to design a HACCP plan for raw materials handling, production,distribution and marketing of a chicken pie. Any guiding information on this subject is gladly welcome.

 

Regards,

Khame