18 replies to this topic

[mind over matter]

Please find attached the Food Safety Manual. I need your comments on the content and everything. I don't understand some of the information especially details of 7.3 and 7.4 in the manual contributed by Ka Pilo (one of the members of QA team). Also, I don't understand how the following work:



-Hazard Evaluation (Risk Analysis)

- Hazard Risk Evaluation Chart

- Hazard Significance Rating (SR) Table

- Process and Ingredients Hazard Identification and Analysis

- the SIPOC method, etc.



If you think it a good methodology and are written in a style that the users will understand, then I will go with it. Or perhaps you have other methodologies or policy statements that you want share. I noted that that Documentation and Record Keeping is redundant as well.

Edited by mind over matter, 19 January 2011 - 01:23 AM.

[mind over matter]

Pity nobody has replied my request.

[Simon]

I'm sure they will in due course Mind Over Matter, there are many experts here, but they must also work from time to time, please be a little patient.

Regards,
Simon

[mind over matter]

I'm sure they will in due course Mind Over Matter, there are many experts here, but they must also work from time to time, please be a little patient.

Regards,
Simon

Sorry as I am pressured about the timeline but will just wait for some responses patiently.



I know that people here are not obligated to give comments and will just give comments when they feel that they can help.



So all inputs are welcome!

[tsmith7858]

Please find attached the Food Safety Manual. I need your comments on the content and everything. I don't understand some of the information especially details of 7.3 and 7.4 in the manual contributed by Ka Pilo (one members of QA team). Also, I don't understand how the following work:



-Hazard Evaluation (Risk Analysis)

- Hazard Risk Evaluation Chart

- Hazard Significance Rating (SR) Table

- Process and Ingredients Hazard Identification and Analysis

- the SIPOC method, etc.



If you think it a good methodology and are written in a style that the users will understand, then I will go with it. Or perhaps you have other methodologies or policy statements that you want share. I noted that that Documentation and Record Keeping is redundant as well.

The tools described in the manual for hazard analysis are all accepted tools. I have used similar beofre so it is easy for me to understand it, but it is your system so whatever you are comfortable with is usually the best.

I have not heard of anyone using SIPOC along with HACCP. From my general knowledge of it I would say it could be used but it is certainly not a requirement.

I would disagree with your assessment of redundancy for Document Control and Records Control. They are two different things as defined in ISO 22000 and in your manual. Document control is the method of controling written processes or forms. Records control is the control of the evidence related to your system. Some people get confused because a form is a document until it is used and then it becomes a record. Records could be CCP results, traceability information, or even production paperwork.

[Charles.C]

Dear MOM,

A few quick comments since you are so time squeezed. Not an ISO 22000 user myself but happy to respond.

You do not tell us what is the primary objective – get certified to ISO 22000 ? I assume yes.

I hate ISO layouts due their customary meanderings so pls note this bias in my reply.

The scope should be exactly spelled out at the beginning.
IMO and as above, better to focus on ISO 22000 , ie 4.1b. Can then eliminate all the superfluous bits.

First impression from yr document is that the submitter is not quite sure of the primary objective also. Management failing ?

I suspect the submitter does not understand the meaning of prps, oprps etc, eg see 7.5.

(Quality) “Procedures” seem to be mixed in with “policy” segments with no logical basis, eg 7.3

Has the submitter had any training in ISO 22000 yet ? HACCP ? (not criticising, just asking)

I’m sure you are aware that the other half of the FSMS involves “Procedures” which are typically cumulatively linked to the “Policy” stuff, somewhere. ?

I appreciate this is probably a “first” draft and many of mine have looked similar. Some way to go yet IMHO.

Have you tried searching this forum yet?. I put up a (sort of) sample auditor's expectation of a Policy (not Procedures) manual (up to approx. pre- section 7.4) some time back ? This included an explanation of the Standards intentions / requirements (overall and detailed for approx. pre-section 7.4).

Rgds / Charles.C

[Zeeshan]

Please find attached the Food Safety Manual. I need your comments on the content and everything. I don't understand some of the information especially details of 7.3 and 7.4 in the manual contributed by Ka Pilo (one members of QA team). Also, I don't understand how the following work:



-Hazard Evaluation (Risk Analysis)

- Hazard Risk Evaluation Chart

- Hazard Significance Rating (SR) Table

- Process and Ingredients Hazard Identification and Analysis

- the SIPOC method, etc.



If you think it a good methodology and are written in a style that the users will understand, then I will go with it. Or perhaps you have other methodologies or policy statements that you want share. I noted that that Documentation and Record Keeping is redundant as well.

I am reading your FSMS Manual. Unfortunately it would take some time due to my personal and official engagements. If it will help you in future, as soon as I complete its study, I will post my comments here. Right now I would suggest two things.

1- You have not specified how would you fulfill the requirements of External Communication.
2- Higher ratings generally means high significance and visa verse but in your manual Significance Rating are inverted which IMO is logically incorrect.

By SIPOC do you mean the acronym (Supplier, Inputs, Process, Outputs, Customer)?

Hopefully I will suggest you more for improvement.

Regards:
M.Zeeshan.

Edited by Zeeshan, 12 January 2011 - 07:28 AM.

[mind over matter]

I would disagree with your assessment of redundancy for Document Control and Records Control. They are two different things as defined in ISO 22000 and in your manual. Document control is the method of controling written processes or forms. Records control is the control of the evidence related to your system. Some people get confused because a form is a document until it is used and then it becomes a record. Records could be CCP results, traceability information, or even production paperwork.

I totally agreed on what you have said, but I was referring to the below:

4.1 General requirements



The Company FSMS has been established, documented, implemented, maintained and its effectiveness continually monitored to

a. Satisfy Company XYZ commitment to food safety and continuous improvement.

b. Meet the requirements and intent of ISO 22000 FSMS-Requirements

c. Meet the changing needs of the market and that of our Customers.



From FSMS perspective, Company XYZ had put in place an ongoing programme to oversee various aspects of FSMS, which includes;

1. Assessment

2. Training

3. Internal Audit

4. External Audit

5. Management Review

6. Document Review

a. Manual

b. Plans

c. Procedures

d. Forms

e. Records

7. Work Review

a. Supplier Evaluation and Surveillance

b. Site Visits

c. Walkabouts

d. Others e.g. Teambuilding, etc





Control of Document

The company has established a documented procedure for controlling new and revised documents required for the FSMS. This procedure ensures that:

a. Documents are approved for adequacy prior to release

b. Documents are reviewed, revised and approved

c. The current versions of documents are available at all locations where activities are carried out

d. Obsolete documents are removed from all points of issue or use, or are otherwise controlled to prevent unintended use

e. Any obsolete documents retained for legal or knowledge preservation purposes are suitably identified

f. All documents shall be legible and readily retrievable

g. Applicable documents of external origin are identified and recorded

The documents can be in any form or any type of media.

Refer to <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Control of Record



The company shall establish and maintain a documented procedure for the identification, storage, retrieval, protection and disposal of records. These records demonstrate conformance to requirements and effective operation of the FSMS.

Individual departments or functions will be responsible for the collation, maintenance and disposal of relevant records. In general, such records are normally maintained per approved retention period. However where required for legal or knowledge retention purposes, this retention period may be longer.

Refer to

And

7.4 Hazard analysis



<snip>

Documentation and Record Keeping

The HACCP documents and records are maintained according to Document Control procedure and Control of Records procedure.



The documents maintained include:

• This Food Safety Manual
• HACCP Control Chart (refer to Appendix XXX for format)
• Flow charts
• Hazard analysis
• CCP determination

· Critical limit determination



The records include:

• CCP monitoring records
• CPAR

I’m not sure which one to remove or retain.

[mind over matter]

A few quick comments since you are so time squeezed. Not an ISO 22000 user myself but happy to respond.

You do not tell us what is the primary objective – get certified to ISO 22000 ? I assume yes.

Yes. I was given a work breakdown schedule and the allotted time for development of a manual is 2 weeks only.

The scope should be exactly spelled out at the beginning.
IMO and as above, better to focus on ISO 22000 , ie 4.1b. Can then eliminate all the superfluous bits.

I will follow your advice. <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

First impression from yr document is that the submitter is not quite sure of the primary objective also. Management failing ?

We still have to define our objectives per department. <BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

I suspect the submitter does not understand the meaning of prps, oprps etc, eg see 7.5.

I haven’t attended formal trainings on ISO 22000. I simply have read the standard.

(Quality) “Procedures” seem to be mixed in with “policy” segments with no logical basis, eg 7.3

Which part?

Has the submitter had any training in ISO 22000 yet ? HACCP ? (not criticising, just asking)

None.

I’m sure you are aware that the other half of the FSMS involves “Procedures” which are typically cumulatively linked to the “Policy” stuff, somewhere. ?

Yes.

Have you tried searching this forum yet?. I put up a (sort of) sample auditor's expectation of a Policy (not Procedures) manual (up to approx. pre- section 7.4) some time back ? This included an explanation of the Standards intentions / requirements (overall and detailed for approx. pre-section 7.4).

I was searching but I haven’t encountered that. I would appreciate if you or somebody can point me to that post.

[mind over matter]

I am reading your FSMS Manual. Unfortunately it would take some time due to my personal and official engagements.

This is understood.

If it will help you in future, as soon as I complete its study, I will post my comments here.

Yes, please.

Right now I would suggest two things.

1- You have not specified how would you fulfill the requirements of External Communication.

Point well taken. I will include that.

2- Higher ratings generally means high significance and visa verse but in your manual Significance Rating are inverted which IMO is logically incorrect.

I’m confused. Can you show me the correct figures and correct placement in the Hazard Significance Rating Table in the manual?

By SIPOC do you mean the acronym (Supplier, Inputs, Process, Outputs, Customer)?

Yes

Hopefully I will suggest you more for improvement.

I am very hopeful too. But also I understand that you have a little time on your hands too.

Edited by mind over matter, 13 January 2011 - 07:56 AM.

[Charles.C]

Dear MOM,

Here is the link to some documents I posted earlier (other people hv put up lots of stuff also of course ) -

http://www.ifsqn.com...dpost__p__29329

Not many people IMEX hv successfully taught themselves 100% HACCP without getting some help via consultants / seminars etc or online courses. I agree it makes sense to try and get an idea of the basics first on yr own from textbooks / web but I suggest you arrange some professional assistance also. Many industries / member organisations offer (almost) free meetings / workshops to help. You will also probably eventually need some "paper" backup for being auditor accepted as a competent haccp team leader (or somebody else will ).

which part ?

The precise style / format of manual(s) is optional but many people use the iso pyramid structure. If so, the details you gave on haccp would probably be in the (middle) Procedure (or lower) tiers. Just a suggestion.

Rgds / Charles.C

PS I don't know if you are familiar with the traditional ISO 9001 Quality Manual. This contains most of the typical iso layout mentioned above. There are many complete downloadable 9001 typical policy manuals available on web for free and even some typical procedure sets also if you look around a bit. Maybe you hv one already of course. Many people do the simplest (minimum) response to the policy manual part since the procedure section is often the time-requiring chunk but this may depend on what you process.

[mind over matter]

Dear MOM,

Here is the link to some documents I posted earlier (other people hv put up lots of stuff also of course ) -

http://www.ifsqn.com...dpost__p__29329

Thank you for the link. I will go through it.

Not many people IMEX hv successfully taught themselves 100% HACCP without getting some help via consultants / seminars etc or online courses. I agree it makes sense to try and get an idea of the basics first on yr own from textbooks / web but I suggest you arrange some professional assistance also.

I totally agree, but it’s all strictly up to our management or Food Safety Team Lead.

Many industries / member organisations offer (almost) free meetings / workshops to help. You will also probably eventually need some "paper" backup for being auditor accepted as a competent haccp team leader (or somebody else will

I really hope the management or our FSTL will send me to trainings conducted by external training providers.

The precise style / format of manual(s) is optional but many people use the iso pyramid structure. If so, the details you gave on haccp would probably be in the (middle) Procedure (or lower) tiers. Just a suggestion.

Perhaps our company’s FSMS documentation would be structured as follows:



Level 1, Food Safety Manual (Policy statements)

Level 2, Procedures

Level 3, Work Instructions

Level 4, Supporting documents (Forms, records, product specs)



Thanks Charles for all your inputs.

[tsmith7858]

I really hope the management or our FSTL will send me to trainings conducted by external training providers.

Perhaps our company’s FSMS documentation would be structured as follows:

Level 1, Food Safety Manual (Policy statements)

Level 2, Procedures

Level 3, Work Instructions

Level 4, Supporting documents (Forms, records, product specs)

First going back to your question on redunancy in document control from earlier post, yes I would agree that 7.4 is redundant and the first statement of "refer to document control and records control" should be all you need.

I have to agree with Charles that it is difficult to implement ISO much less HACCP without training and hope that you can confince your management that training is critical. I made the same suggestion to your counter part (Ka Pilo) on a different site that he has chosen to use for questions and feedback.

Your documentation levels look fine and resembles the basic "documentation pyramid" that is typical to ISO. Google documentation pyramid for more examples http://www.google.co...ion pyr&gs_rfai=

Again, don't get caught up in what other people call thier documents, use what is common and makes sense to you and your company. As long as you can explain why you call it what you do, any auditor worth your time will find it suitable.

[mind over matter]

I made the same suggestion to your counter part (Ka Pilo) on a different site that he has chosen to use for questions and feedback.

Really? Thank you for all the advice.



Dear Everyone,

Thanks for all your posts.

We are revising our manual taking into consideration all your inputs. I really appreciate taking the time to review our manual.

[Zeeshan]

Dear MOM,

Attached is a file containing some comments on your FSMS manual. Hopefully helpful in improving your document.

 Comments on FSMS.doc   56KB   117 downloads

Regards:
M.Zeeshan

[Simon]

Dear MOM,

Attached is a file containing some comments on your FSMS manual. Hopefully helpful in improving your document.

 Comments on FSMS.doc   56KB   117 downloads

Regards:
M.Zeeshan

That level of support is above and beyond the normal, you deserve a medal Zeeshan.

Thanks,
Simon

[Zeeshan]

That level of support is above and beyond the normal, you deserve a medal Zeeshan.

Thanks,
Simon

Thanks for the compliments !

[mind over matter]

Dear MOM,

Attached is a file containing some comments on your FSMS manual. Hopefully helpful in improving your document.

 Comments on FSMS.doc   56KB   117 downloads

Regards:
M.Zeeshan

Thank you very much, Zeeshan, for taking time from your busy schedule to post a reply.
I really appreciate your reviewing our lengthy FSMS manual and for all the advices.
Your help is highly appreciated.

This forum is a big source of help. Thanks again for all your replies and analysis.

[mind over matter]

That level of support is above and beyond the normal, you deserve a medal Zeeshan.

Thanks,
Simon

I am so glad being a member in this forum makes my work a lot easier. There are a bunch of information and a lot of helpful people who are willing to help.

Thank you Zeeshan. Kudos to all of you.