27 replies to this topic

[jaredkkrischel]

Are "All Natural" ingredients considered "identity preserved"?

Edited by jaredkkrischel, 19 May 2011 - 08:05 PM.

[Hongyun]

Are "All Natural" ingredients considered "identity preserved"?

What is your difination of "all natural"?

From my limited knowledge on IP, produce like tomatos and corns grown by farmers does not necessary means IP unless they are DNA tested to be free from foreign genes, plus some kind of system and documentation on how the the foods are produced.

[jaredkkrischel]

I guess I don't have a definition of "all natural" but we have some ingredients that say on their label that they are all natural. I guess I didn't know there was different definitions for all natural. I would say "made with no synthetic ingredients, flavors, or coloring."

[Zeeshan]

Are "All Natural" ingredients considered "identity preserved"?

According to BRC Food Standard, an IP material is a product/ingredient/material which has a defined origin or purity characteristic which needs to be retained throughout the food chain, e.g., through traceability and protection from contamination. Examples as stated are GMOs, assured organic products and products with special designated origin. Hence IMO, it would not be correct to state that "All Natural" ingredients are considered as "identity preserved" until and unless it is further elaborated. If the term "All natural" is interchangeable with the term "organic products" then answer would definitely be "YES". Otherwise any natural product would not be categorized as IP product until and unless it is of assured organic status or of special designated origin.

Regards:
M. Zeeshan

[Jason H.Z.C.]

Dear all,

For this topic I have one more puzzle.

Some factories certified by Kosher. Such certification process seems require all raw material and ingredients suppliers are also Kosher certified. So in my personal opinion, products covered by Kosher certification are attributed to IP products.

What are others' opinions? Any comment will be appreciated.

Best regards,

Jason

[D-D]

I have read elsewhere here that Kosher (and Halal) are IP.

[Jason H.Z.C.]

Thank you so much, D-D.

Best regards,

Jason

[Madam A. D-tor]

Dear Jason,

Halal, kosher, organic, Freerange, GMO-free, GMO-containing, GMO-IP, MSC, are examples of identity preserved materials.
As Zeeshan already indicated IP products are characterised by an unique (mostly ethical) parameter, which has to be maintained through the food chain.
Mostly these IP products are a more value above the conventional products. At least for a target consumer group.
Customer specific products can also be IP products. E.g. a large global fast food chain, requires that the poultry for their products came from selected farms, from birds from a selected breed, which had specific selected feed, etc. Both the slaughtery and the producer has to keep these poultry separated from the other birds/products.


Dear Jaredkkrishel,

"All Natural" is no IP product unless you use this as a guarentee and control "all natural" during your production chain. Just as Zeeshan explained.

[Jason H.Z.C.]

Dear Madam,

Thank you for quite detailed explannation . Long time no see you , how are you?

Sincerely regards,

Jason

[jaredkkrischel]

Thank you all!

If all of our raw materials are Kosher, we wouldn't have to take any special precautions in regards to storage and segregation, correct?

[esquef]

Thank you all!

If all of our raw materials are Kosher, we wouldn't have to take any special precautions in regards to storage and segregation, correct?

Not necessarily, but that depends on your Kosher certififying organization. Here in the U.S. there are many, and all have their own twists and turns. In my experience one of the largest here does require segration of raw materials and finished product to some degree, but it is somewhat dependent on exactly what those ingredients/finished products are as well as how likely kosher ingredients/products could be contaminated by non-kosher product (for example it would be frowned upon to vertically store a kosher product below a non-kosher product.)

Regards,
esquef

[Madam A. D-tor]

Dear Jaredkkrischel,

The answer is Yes and No!

You probably wont need any extra measures in storage and handling.
for incoming product inspection and for purchase activities you need to make sure, that the materials you receive are indeed Kosher, and were not mixed up at the supplier premises or during transport.
E.g. If you supplier handles both Kosher and not Kosher materials, they could have made mistake by picking. So you need to check the labels and product information.
During supplier approval/auditing you need to make sure that the supplier has taken proper measures to pevent mixing up.

[ScottN_AMQA]

Thank you all!

If all of our raw materials are Kosher, we wouldn't have to take any special precautions in regards to storage and segregation, correct?

Since this is in the BRC forum also consider things that may impact the safety of the raw materials , potential for contamination or cross contamination from allergens.

[Tony-C]

Are "All Natural" ingredients considered "identity preserved"?

Natural could be interpreted as a 'purity characterisitc'

Your question doesn't really provide enough information as this could depend on what claims you are making with regards to your product and what your finished product is.

Regards,

Tony

[GMO]

The question as given; no. As I understand it, 'IP' refers to particular claims you can make about the food; be they religious (Halal, Kosher), ethical (Organic, Sustainable Palm Oil - RSPO, GMO etc) or origin (red tractor etc.)

'Natural' is something you'd have to check with local legislation. I know the EU has got a bit twitchy in recent years about labelling and it's not a term I've used but it's difficult to define when something 'natural' becomes 'unnatural'. After all, biochemical changes occur when milk is turned into cheese but we wouldn't call it 'unnatural', however, at what point in a process does it become unnatural? If it's made into cheese powder? If colourings are added? What if they're from a natural source? What if they are from a natural source but chemically modified in a small way?

It's a minefield!

Whatever your claim is though it's a good idea as said earlier on to check the specs state the claim you are trying to make (e.g. GMO free) and that each delivery is checked to ensure this is the case (even if all that is checked is a certificate of conformity.)

[mgourley]

Would pareve be considered an IP material?

Marshall

[esquef]

Would pareve be considered an IP material?

Marshall

Jewish dietary laws considers pareve (or parve) food to be neutral; Pareve food can be eaten with both meat and milk dishes. My understanding is that it is IP since if processed on/in equipment that is non-kosher (equipment on/in which non-kosher foods have been processed previous to the processing of pareve food) it loses its identity preserved kosher status.

[mgourley]

Jewish dietary laws considers pareve (or parve) food to be neutral; Pareve food can be eaten with both meat and milk dishes. My understanding is that it is IP since if processed on/in equipment that is non-kosher (equipment on/in which non-kosher foods have been processed previous to the processing of pareve food) it loses its identity preserved kosher status.

Then in our process, since it's not processed on or in equipment that that is not used for non-kosher, it's not IP.

Thanks for the reply.

Marshall

[Madam A. D-tor]

Would pareve be considered an IP material?

Dear Marshall,

I think this is a difficult one.

I did not know what Pareve is, so conducted a google search:
found this on about.com:

Definition: Parve is a Hebrew term (pareve is the Yiddish term) that describes food without any meat or dairy ingredients.

Jewish dietary laws considers pareve food to be neutral; Pareve food can be eaten with both meat and milk dishes.

Fish, eggs, fruits and vegetables are parve.

My first reaction: it is something as vegetarian and this is no IP product

found this on wiki.answers.com:

Pareve

Foods that are neither meat nor dairy are called pareve (also "parevine") in Judaism. This means that they contain absolutely no meat or dairy derivatives, and have not been cooked or mixed with any meat or dairy foods. The reason behind needing to know if foods are pareve or not is that Jewish law prohibits mixing meat and milk. Pareve foods can be eaten together with either meat or dairy foods.



Common pareve foods are eggs, fish, fruit, vegetables, grains and juices in their natural, unprocessed state. Processed pareve foods typically include pasta, soft drinks, coffee and tea, and many types of candy and snacks. Processed products, however, must have reliable kashruth supervision. Dark chocolate might be pareve; milk chocolate definitely is not.



Although commercially produced pareve breads are more widely available than before, care must be taken to be absolutely sure they are certified "pareve" by reliable supervision (trust us, you don't want to make a salami sandwich on bread containing whey).

Fruits and veggies must be checked to ensure against the presence of small insects and larvae (yum!). Eggs must also be checked for blood spots (fertilization).

in this quote they are speaking about certification. In this case I would call it an IP product, because you have to segregate the certified bread from the non certified bread.

[mgourley]

Dear Marshall,

I think this is a difficult one.

I did not know what Pareve is, so conducted a google search:
found this on about.com:


My first reaction: it is something as vegetarian and this is no IP product

found this on wiki.answers.com:

in this quote they are speaking about certification. In this case I would call it an IP product, because you have to segregate the certified bread from the non certified bread.

In our process, no bread varieties produced contain any dairy and there are no dairy ingredients on the premises. This would mean that there is no need to segregate products or processes and thus no need to ensure that the finished goods are indeed pareve.
Do you think this would be an accurate statement?

Marshall

[Madam A. D-tor]

In our process, no bread varieties produced contain any dairy and there are no dairy ingredients on the premises. This would mean that there is no need to segregate products or processes and thus no need to ensure that the finished goods are indeed pareve.
Do you think this would be an accurate statement? Marshall

Hi Marshall,

The bread was only an example. As indicated, I do not know anything about pareve.

The new issue of BRC is very clear about IP products. They also includes provenance and assured status. e.g. Irish Beef should be Irish beef and the producer should be able to proof this.
If pareve products are like vegetarian product, IMO this is no IP. However you should guarantee it is pareve.
If pareve products ae certified products. These are IMO considered as IP. I guess that most requirements from BRC regarding IP are already in the pareve certification standard.
e.g. some fish producers handle MSC wild salmon. This MSC salmon is the only wild salmon the producer has on site. The organisation need to have a MSC certificate and do need to comply to the requirements. Due to the fact that there are no other similar products, it is not that hard to maintain segregation and traceability.

In your case: I do know to little to confirm that your statement is accurate.
For example: I do not know if certifcate is required, before you can name a produce pareve and I do not know if there are any specific pareve certified ingredients, that you need to use.
Within BRC it is always good to report a risk assessment based statement.

I hope for you, that there is a pareve expert on this site, who can help you with your queries better than I did.

[Food Forum]

Hi Marshall,

The bread was only an example. As indicated, I do not know anything about pareve.

The new issue of BRC is very clear about IP products. They also includes provenance and assured status. e.g. Irish Beef should be Irish beef and the producer should be able to proof this.
If pareve products are like vegetarian product, IMO this is no IP. However you should guarantee it is pareve.
If pareve products ae certified products. These are IMO considered as IP. I guess that most requirements from BRC regarding IP are already in the pareve certification standard.
e.g. some fish producers handle MSC wild salmon. This MSC salmon is the only wild salmon the producer has on site. The organisation need to have a MSC certificate and do need to comply to the requirements. Due to the fact that there are no other similar products, it is not that hard to maintain segregation and traceability.

In your case: I do know to little to confirm that your statement is accurate.
For example: I do not know if certifcate is required, before you can name a produce pareve and I do not know if there are any specific pareve certified ingredients, that you need to use.
Within BRC it is always good to report a risk assessment based statement.

I hope for you, that there is a pareve expert on this site, who can help you with your queries better than I did.

Hi what is about orgenic cane sugar is a natural?

[Aegean]

Dear Jason;



Madam A and Zeeshan explained very well. I want to add one more thing. To me it is not important just what is written on the labels of your raw materials/ingredients. The thing is here; which one has a characteristic parameter needs to be protected/continued through your process chain. So now, I think you can pick up some of those ingredients as IP in that manner ..



Best Regards,
Aegean

[Aegean]

Hi what is about orgenic cane sugar is a natural?

Hi Food Forum;

As it is an organic (some more special) product; organic cane sugar might be an IP for your process. (You need to segregate it from other conventional ones dont you ..)

Best Regards

Aegean

[infoiqc]

Regarding parve.
Parve would be a subset of kosher, it means that the product contains no dairy or meat ingredients and was not produced on equipment on which dairy or meat products were produced. You could only mark your product parve (neutral) if the kosher supervisor okays it.
If you produce some dairy products and some parve products you would have to consider parve an IP claim but you would already have a kosher IP claim.

Would labelling a product (not necessarily kosher certified) non-dairy be considered an IP claim?

Gail
infoiqc