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Are my production areas low, high risk/care - cucumber processing?

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Sveta

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:21 PM

Hello!

Could you help me please to categorize production areas ( my versionis in brackets )

1. washing and calibration of fresh cucumbers. (low risk)
2. fermentation of cucumbers (low risk)
3. desalting (low risk)
4. cutting and packing cucumbers, filling with prepared marinade (high care)
5. storage of finished products (low risk)

Would you agree with me?

Thank you for your help!



Charles.C

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 02:46 AM

Hello!

Could you help me please to categorize production areas ( my versionis in brackets )

1. washing and calibration of fresh cucumbers. (low risk)
2. fermentation of cucumbers (low risk)
3. desalting (low risk)
4. cutting and packing cucumbers, filling with prepared marinade (high care)
5. storage of finished products (low risk)

Would you agree with me?

Thank you for your help!


Dear Sveta,

No offence intended and happy to assist but i suggest you post a (more) detailed process description/flow chart. Otherwise current experience indicates that any comments may well be a waste of your time. As you probably know, the decisions may relate to, for example, structural layout-separations/product step temperatures/condition of products, etc.

Rgds / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


saqibfst

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 07:16 AM

i agree withCharles

saveta u must give the complete flow process chart , that will give some better idea of you operation , otherwise i discussion will be useless.

u have to provide the each and every steps in detailed.

i think the storage will come under high risk area.

regards
saqib



Sveta

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 10:06 AM

Sorry for giving you so little info.

Process in more details:

  • Receiving of fresh cucumbers, washing (potable warer), calibration (All during one day).
  • Fermentation of cucumbers outside in big tanks open (salt 5-5,8%, pH < 5,8, acidity > 0,02%, sodium benzoate 0,06%).
  • Storage of fermented cucumbers in the same big tanks open up to two years (salt 10-12%)
  • Desalting in potable water (salt from 10 to 5%)
  • Processing line:

    - sorting manually
  • cutting (diameter 2,7 – 5,5)
  • packing into plastic packets, filling with prepared marinade (manually or automated)
  • metal detector
  • marking
  • packing into boxes
  • Storage (finished product: acetic acid 0,7 – 1,0%, salt 2,5 – 3,5%, pH< 3,80, storage conditions from 0 to +27C)


Stage 1 in separatebuilding.

Stages 2 and 3outside.

Stages 4-6 in onebuilding, but different rooms.





Charles.C

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 10:45 AM

Dear Sveta,

Thks for the details.

Unusually long process time.!! Haven't seen this exact process before but I daresay other people here will be more familiar.

1. Storage (finished product: acetic acid 0,7 – 1,0%, salt 2,5 – 3,5%, pH< 3,80, storage conditions from 0 to +27C)


I guess the "1" should be "6". No problem.

Two immediate and important (categorisation) questions whose answers not yet obvious to me but I predict will be "Yes" :smile: -
(1) By "0 - 27degC", do you mean Russian ambient temperature ? ie Is the finished product RTE / shelf-stable, ie ready-to-eat and no need for chilled storage ? (Yr English looks excellent but just repeating for clarity :smile: )

(2) Typical shelf-life ? (eg >= 1year [seems likely if it is shelf-stable unless the non-safety, quality characteristics fail more quickly?]).

Rgds / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Sveta

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 06:37 PM

Dear Charles,




Yes, 1 should be 6)))), crazy Word))).

Answering you questions:

1) Yes. But before the storage requirement was from 0 to +4. It is changed now because tests showed the product is ok if stored in ambient temperature.

2) Shelf life is 4 months, though probably it can be extended, but no data to prove it at this moment.




Regards,

Sveta



Sveta

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 06:40 PM

Forgot to say, its ready to eat product, used in making sandwiches.






Charles.C

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 07:19 PM

Forgot to say, its ready to eat product, used in making sandwiches.


Dear Sveta,

Thks for info/2posts. I presume the shelf-life as currently used is limited on quality reasons, not safety (I did a quick look around the net on yr process/product and, not surprisingly, the low pH etc seems to ensure a low risk finished product.) I am a little surprised that you can maintain uniform quality after 2 years of the earlier storage step :unsure: :smile: .

Since you initially suggested some categories i guess you are familiar with the BRC requirements. If you are reading the other running threads here on this risk/care subject you will see there is some "debate" over exact meaning/implementation of parts of BRC's decision tree and their definitions. Also over the alignment of their approach as compared to existing risk/care classification systems, eg as pioneered by CFA (chilled food organisation) in UK. My own major experience is in frozen RTE and non-RTE so i am currently "self-upgrading" however several other "chilled" people will probably see yr posts in next few days. Maybe slight delay in response since this is weekend. I will also have a think and revert asap. (Especially if more queries when applying the decision tree though hopefully not).

Best Rgds / Charles.C

PS of course, as per yr info., the finished product is (currently) not a chilled product. This appears to have a specific BRC significance but which is also under some discussion here also. ;)

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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GMO

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 06:10 AM

Tricky! This is a difficult one! I would suggest that as there is no formal decontamination step then the processing area has to be high care.

This is certainly a difficult one to identify where in the process the product becomes high care. I think rather than answer your question directly, I'd rather tell you my concerns and perhaps that will clarify things?

Do you mean 'open' tanks, as in not covered at all? Or do you mean there's open access for anyone outside? This worries me because at this stage you've already washed the cucumbers and added the ingredients which will preserve them and are developing the correct pH to ensure food safety, quality and shelf life yet at this stage it appears there are no restrictions. Am I understanding this correctly?



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Charles.C

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 07:10 AM

Dear Sveta / GMO,

I am unclear as to the details of the marinade-addition step. I noticed you selected this as High Care, any particular reason ?

In the meantime, I shall assume that the marinade has no effect on the safety characteristics of the product and will continue as if considering a pure pickled cucumber item. If reality is otherwise, can always start again. :smile:

I noted in a few net comments over “similar” finished products to yr own, some pro/con opinions as to the safety when stored unchilled for unspecified times. However I did not (yet) see any scientific analyses concluding one way or the other or even stating any specific limitations. So I have assumed you can validate yr ambient distribution/shelf life safety-wise.

Based on yr input and the text within the BRC decision tree, it appears to me that a “NO” occurs at tree-step2. Accordingly the associated zones are presumably low risk if “Open”. I am guessing stages 2/3 could be "BRC" “Enclosed” (added - see my comments in 3PPS below) but this seems unlikely to be validatable for a 2 year residence time ! :smile: .

Assuming yr product is classifiable as “pickles” it (or rather the production facilities) is also specifically mentioned in the standards text section 2.1 as low risk (again presumably assuming the surrounding text requirements are also fulfilled).

[BTW - Even if yr product is stored chilled, the tree-step2 seems to imply that it could still be low risk if only carried out for shelf-life extension. (I interpret this as meaning something like “unrelated to safety aspects which remain satisfactory with/without chilling” but I think I have seen this “exception” being currently debated here, which is hardly surprising).]

I should emphasise again that I am ignorant regarding yr product so no problem if pickled cucumber (or any other) experts wish to disagree with any of above. Including interpreters of the decision tree also of course.

Rgds / Charles.C

PS I only just saw GMO's previous post so 2 answers already. :biggrin:

PPS No experience with marinades so i had just assumed was a super-flavoring step since system seemed to have no need for further "protection". But maybe it is essential to ph/salt balance ?? (seems unlikely, off-hand but maybe the marinade is a super-pH dropper ;) )

3PS - The sort-of similar systems i noticed discussed in a textbook mentioned closed tanks as typical rather than open so as to prevent oxidative aerobic species getting involved with fermentation. Hardly seems feasible to be "open" (or "closed") for 2 years.?? :smile:


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Charles Chew

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 07:52 AM

Frankly, this idea of production zoning is getting very ridiculous and all that it does is merely providing a zone categorization base on process environment risk impact and degree of care required to maintain end product integrity or from deterioration. I believe all these have already been addressed through the use of HACCP principles and other supporting risk assessment techniques. What is the real intention by BRC behind this concept and what was their customer survey feedbacks that led to the introduction of a production zoning decision tree. Does it really add values to what is currently being practiced out there OR is this just another load of documented junk? Your take!


Cheers,
Charles Chew
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GMO

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 08:19 AM

Frankly, this idea of production zoning is getting very ridiculous and all that it does is merely providing a zone categorization base on process environment risk impact and degree of care required to maintain end product integrity or from deterioration. I believe all these have already been addressed through the use of HACCP principles and other supporting risk assessment techniques. What is the real intention by BRC behind this concept and what was their customer survey feedbacks that led to the introduction of a production zoning decision tree. Does it really add values to what is currently being practiced out there OR is this just another load of documented junk? Your take!



Hmm. Good point. I would argue though that considering a recent thread where there was a CFA presentation showing the number of Listeria outbreaks with hospital sandwiches; then consider how many hospitals source their sandwiches from small, probably not high care facilities vs. big high care facilities supplying Tesco's and the like, then I do think there is a point. I think there has to be some pragmatism and as Charles C has said, it might not be high care at all in this example. I don't know because the process sounds all a bit alien to me! I suspect that this will be a difficult area for auditors in the first year and where people feel they've had non conformances raised incorrectly, they should challenge them.

That all said, whether UK hospitals take the blindest bit of notice of BRC accreditation when it comes to sandwich sourcing, I suspect not.

I think there are obvious high care examples, obvious high risk and a few vague areas. As a rule of thumb I would say any chilled product which is ready to eat will probably have either a high risk or high care requirement. This won't be 100% true in all cases I'm sure but in most. What annoys me is some powerful people in the cheese industry must have been bending a few ears, I notice they're excluded (and I see no good reason why).


Charles Chew

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:46 AM

I would argue though that considering a recent thread where there was a CFA presentation showing the number of Listeria outbreaks with hospital sandwiches;

Using risk base assessment, sandwiches would certainly come under a high care / high risk product category where the process area or a Quick Serve Outlet would require a high degree of hygiene control. I am also sure you would concur with me that if such a process plant had been certified, the poor operating hygiene standard would have been picked up by the auditor or through an environmental laboratory test. So, do we need a BRC production zoning decision tree to amplify the likelihood of Listeria impact as a targeted potential pathogen? I really don't think so.

Edited by Charles Chew, 22 January 2012 - 09:50 AM.

Cheers,
Charles Chew
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GMO

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 10:50 AM

What I was trying to say was some obvious high care facilities aren't currently run as high care because they're small and the EHO is presumably happy. Even though I think increasingly that this version of the BRC is a pile of pants, I do think the intention was sensible. The only problem is with this and other clauses that they have published no guidelines and so it's not the intention which is audited against but the wording of the standard. This could lead to some people failing (wrongly), some people passing (wrongly) and huge investment where it is needed and where it isn't.

Some kind of transition period for this where the certification body could put in recommendations which would become non conformances for next year's audit would have been helpful.



Charles Chew

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 04:33 AM

Even though I think increasingly that this version of the BRC is a pile of pants, I do think the intention was sensible.

I can only deduce from the global increased in incidences of outbreak in food poisonings from Listeria and other pathogenic impact (Salmonella, etc) by owner of certified sites as the key driver in forcing the hands of BRC towards adopting a firmer approach in "policing" / containing this deterioration. However, added clarity would be helpful.

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Charles Chew
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Madam A. D-tor

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:57 PM

Dear Sveta,

If your product is not sensible for pathogen growth, then the areas will be low risk, as I understood it.
Your product parameters: acetic acid 0,7 – 1,0%, salt 2,5 – 3,5%, pH< 3,80, do not promote growth of pathogens.
Therefore th product areas are all low care.


Just like Charles and GMO, i am unfamilair to your product and process.
I wonder why the fermentation tank remains open. Which micro organism is responsible for fermentation? Is this an aerobic bacteria?
I also wonder why the cucumbers are fermented as whole cucumbers and then cut/sliced. Would it not be easyer to first slice the cucumbers and then fermentation. I mean, can you easily slice/cut the fermented product or will it also be softened during the fermentation proces?


Kind Regards,

Madam A. D-tor

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Sveta

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:56 AM

Do you mean 'open' tanks, as in not covered at all? Or do you mean there's open access for anyone outside? This worries me because at this stage you've already washed the cucumbers and added the ingredients which will preserve them and are developing the correct pH to ensure food safety, quality and shelf life yet at this stage it appears there are no restrictions. Am I understanding this correctly?


Dear GMO,


Sorry for not turning up for a long time!

Open tanks mean they are not covered, but there is no access for anyone outside.

At this stage we've added the ingredients which will preserve cucumbers until we get order for sliced pickled cucumbers. at the further stages we will desalt them, then slice and add marinade, and only after that we will get finished product with correct salt, pH to ensure food safety, quality and shelf life.


GMO

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:17 AM

But they're outside and open to the atmosphere? Leaves, bird poo etc could all fall in?



Sveta

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:23 AM

Dear Charles C,


Sorry, for not turning up here for a long time!

Dear Sveta / GMO,

I am unclear as to the details of the marinade-addition step. I noticed you selected this as High Care, any particular reason ?

In the meantime, I shall assume that the marinade has no effect on the safety characteristics of the product and will continue as if considering a pure pickled cucumber item. If reality is otherwise, can always start again. :smile:


To be honest, there is no any particular reason, just because it takes place in the same room where cucumbers are sliced.

No, marinade has effect on the safety characteristics of the product - pH and acidity characteristics in finished product are regulated by marinade.

I noted in a few net comments over “similar” finished products to yr own, some pro/con opinions as to the safety when stored unchilled for unspecified times. However I did not (yet) see any scientific analyses concluding one way or the other or even stating any specific limitations. So I have assumed you can validate yr ambient distribution/shelf life safety-wise.


yes, we have test results confirming shelf life in ambient conditions.


Based on yr input and the text within the BRC decision tree, it appears to me that a “NO” occurs at tree-step2.



yes, i also think so.

Accordingly the associated zones are presumably low risk if “Open”. I am guessing stages 2/3 could be "BRC" “Enclosed” (added - see my comments in 3PPS below) but this seems unlikely to be validatable for a 2 year residence time ! :smile: .

Assuming yr product is classifiable as “pickles” it (or rather the production facilities) is also specifically mentioned in the standards text section 2.1 as low risk (again presumably assuming the surrounding text requirements are also fulfilled).


sorry, what do you mean under "standards text section 2.1 "?
In any case (whatever zone we identify) we think this is important to have special care for processing line))))))







Regards,



Sveta


Sveta

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:03 AM

Dear Madam A. D-tor,

Dear Sveta,

If your product is not sensible for pathogen growth, then the areas will be low risk, as I understood it.
Your product parameters: acetic acid 0,7 – 1,0%, salt 2,5 – 3,5%, pH< 3,80, do not promote growth of pathogens.
Therefore th product areas are all low care.

Thanks for your opinion.
As i wrote above: In any case (whatever zone we identify) we think this is important to have special care for processing line))))))

I wonder why the fermentation tank remains open.



all similar productions are like this, it is due to technological requirements.

Which micro organism is responsible for fermentation? Is this an aerobic bacteria?

fermentation of sugar in cucumbers to lactic acid.

I also wonder why the cucumbers are fermented as whole cucumbers and then cut/sliced. Would it not be easyer to first slice the cucumbers and then fermentation. I mean, can you easily slice/cut the fermented product or will it also be softened during the fermentation proces?


cucumbers are fermented and then stored for a long time before slicing. cucumbers shouldn't be softened during fermentation though they are changed, they should be crisped. soft cucumbers are non conforming product. if they remain crisp, then can you easily slice them.

Sorry, its difficult for me to explain in details all this technological things. But this production is exactly the same as in other countries))))



Regards,

Sveta


Sveta

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:08 AM

But they're outside and open to the atmosphere? Leaves, bird poo etc could all fall in?


Yes, they are open to the atmosphere.

there is no tight closure, but there is wooden round shield on top of cucumbers, so leaves, bird poo etc could fall in only on the side of the tank.



Charles.C

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:35 AM

Dear Sveta,

sorry, what do you mean under "standards text section 2.1 "?

Reference to the BRC food standard,ver6.

Rgds / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C




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