36 replies to this topic

[S Maddux]

I really need some help.  We process cooked meats at my facility.  We have two high risk rooms (cooked meats)  separated by a low risk room (raw meat).  The products are in sealed pouches that we put on racks with wheels.  The problem is the racks need to go from one high risk room to the other high risk room.  We would like to keep them on the racks and move them through the low risk room.   We thought about putting a tote liner over the racks when they are moved.  We also thought about putting fenders over the wheels or making the bottom of the rack a solid piece to stop any splashing from the ground.   The only concern with a solid bottom is air flow when cooling or freezing.  So what about putting empty cook pans on the bottom shelf (picture of cook pan attached)?   I see a problem with the tote liners.  A team member from the high risk side would put the liner over the rack and I would think the low risk team member moving the rack would take the liner off, because the low risk team member touched the liner.  Does anyone see an issue with this. 

 

Our other concern is the amount of tote liners we would have to use, money.    Now if the cooked product is in a sealed pouch do you think we still need to put a tote liner over the rack?  If there isn't a liner would sanitizing the pouches before they go in the high risk room be enough?    I could do some test on this as part of my risk assessment.  The racks would have to move about 120 feet through the low risk room, pretty much a straight shot and the area the rack will travel is about 10-15 feet wide with equipment and team members working on both sides.  The floor is wet most of the time.  I added a picture of the rack with the pouches on them.  Like I said the pouches are fully sealed and product is cooked in the pouch.  We did think about taking the pouched product off the racks and putting them in a tote with lid to move them but that adds more time and money.  We will do what we need to do but I wanted to see what all of you might have to say about this.  Thanks for the help. 

Attached Files

•  rack with pouches.jpg   93.21KB   6 downloads
•  Cook Pan.jpg   14.02KB   2 downloads

[Snookie]

If I understand correctly....big If ( I had to read what you wrote several times)....based on what your doing, liners are a bargain compared to the potential risks.  Have you tried this without product to see if it works?  In theory it might work, but the description is scary and if it is as described, most auditors I would think are going to be very concerned and watch the process intently. 

[Slab]

You will need a secondary barrier in addition to the primary packaging.  When (?) the product is reintroduced into high risk the secondary barrier needs to be sanitized along with workers gloves prior to handling the product.  As far as airborne contaminants, that's really difficult to assess without seeing your operation.  A strong and careless jet from a hose in wash-down could easily aerosol floor water and circulate via cooling unit fans.   

 

The second approach is even better, however as an extra precautionary measure I would still use a liner over the cart to mitigate cart contamination.  

 

Don't rely on micro tests or risk assessments alone (as these tend to be only a snapshot of a perfect world given human nature). Instead exhaust all opportunities through worst case scenario and establish a monitoring procedure, in addition to validations.  But That's just me... I'm paranoid. 

 

I understand your position is not an easy one;  No one likes to see QA come to them with a puzzled look and a calculator. But I agree with, Snookie. Who said, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"?

[cazyncymru]

To be honest, id be more worried about the wheels on the trolleys. How are you going to ensure that they are clean entering both the high risk rooms?

 

Sorry to throw a curve ball!

 

Caz x

[Slab]

To be honest, id be more worried about the wheels on the trolleys. How are you going to ensure that they are clean entering both the high risk rooms?

 

Sorry to throw a curve ball!

 

Caz x

 

That's a very good point, caz. I obviously failed to appreciate the timed foamers we have in our plant.  I thought everyone used those!

 

[edit]

grammar

Edited by Slab, 20 June 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[Setanta]

Can I ask a question...it may be the lack of caffeine, but why is raw meat low risk and cooked meats high risk?  Since I couldn't wrap my head around that, I was unable to 'see' the rest of the situation well.

 

Setanta

[Mr. Incognito]

Yeah you would need foamers that the wheel rolled through at least.  You'll also need a cart cleaning program.  The only place I've worked that had foamers was the yogurt plant.  You would obviously have to do titrations on the foamers to ensure that the level of sanitizer in them was correct as well.

[Mr. Incognito]

Can I ask a question...it may be the lack of caffeine, but why is raw meat low risk and cooked meats high risk?  Since I couldn't wrap my head around that, I was unable to 'see' the rest of the situation well.

 

Setanta

 

I'm sure it has to do with the level of bacteria in the meat.  Uncooked meat is going to have a lot of bacteria while the cooked meat should have very little.  Unless that was written wrong in the beginning that is probably the mindset.  The uncooked meat could be seen as a lower risk in the plant because it is going to be cooked and the pathogens destroyed however once it's cooked if you reintroduce bacteria then it'll grow without a kill step.

 

drink more coffee

Edited by Mr. Incognito, 20 June 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[Setanta]

I'm sure it has to do with the level of bacteria in the meat.  Uncooked meat is going to have a lot of bacteria while the cooked meat should have very little.  Unless that was written wrong in the beginning that is probably the mindset.  The uncooked meat could be seen as a lower risk in the plant because it is going to be cooked and the pathogens destroyed however once it's cooked if you reintroduce bacteria then it'll grow without a kill step.

 

drink more coffee

Right. Raw = HIGH risk  Cooked=Low risk.

 

That's isn't how it's phrased.

 

"We process cooked meats at my facility.  We have two high risk rooms (cooked meats)  separated by a low risk room (raw meat)."

Edited by Setanta, 20 June 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[Mr. Incognito]

Right. Raw = HIGH risk  Cooked=Low risk.

 

That's isn't how it's phrased.

 

"We process cooked meats at my facility.  We have two high risk rooms (cooked meats)  separated by a low risk room (raw meat)."

 

You misread my post... I haven't had enough coffee either:

 

I believe this is how he is looking at the product:

 

Raw product - High bacteria - low risk of being contaminated... because it already is - is going to be cooked - low risk

Cooked product - low bacteria - high risk of being contaminated... because it's already cooked - can't be contaminated must be protected - high risk

 

It's a semantic of what side of the risk your looking at.  You are thinking raw should be high risk because it can contaminate.  I think what S Madd was saying was what is at risk of BEING contaminated.  If you look at the meat this way then cooked product is at higher risk.

[cazyncymru]

The Raw meat is low risk because it is going to undergo a cooking process.

 

The cooked meat would be high risk at is a RTE product that may not undergo a further cooking.

 

The raw meat may potentially have pathogenic bacteria which would be killed off in the cooking process.

 

I would also have an environmental swabbing regime for the wheels, base of the trolleys. and the floor at the entrances of both high risk rooms.

 

Caz x

[cazyncymru]

drink more coffee

 

 

We should synchronise our watches and have an IFSQN Coffee Morning!!

[Mr. Incognito]

Don't make me friend all of you on google plus and have a cup of coffee with you all over a google hangout... because that would be awesome...

Edited by Mr. Incognito, 20 June 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[Setanta]

drink more coffee

 

 

We should synchronise our watches and have an IFSQN Coffee Morning!!

Can I make do with diet soda?  Coffee never became my thing. 

 

<sips said soda> Ahhhhh, it's so clear to me now...

[cazyncymru]

Well I only drink tea , or Vodka!!

 

Caz x

[Mr. Incognito]

Can I make do with diet soda?  Coffee never became my thing. 

 

<sips said soda> Ahhhhh, it's so clear to me now...

 

(This is a spoof of a commercial and I don't know enough world drinks to include everyone so don't throw hate please  )

 

I don't know...

 

If you allow soda drinkers into the coffee chat then the Brittish will be like "I only drink Tea".

 

If you allow the Tea drinkers into the coffee chat then the Japanese will say "I only drink Sake"

 

If you allow the Sake drinkers into the chat then we will all want to drink before work.

 

If we all drink before work quality will slip and a massive outbreak of foodborne pathogens will ensue.

 

Don't let a massive outbreak of foodborne pathogens ensue.  Switch to DirecTV... wait is that how that was supposed to end? (and I don't need to want to drink beer before work)

[Setanta]

Well I only drink tea , or Vodka!!

 

Caz x

Health NUT  LOL    I will have some chai later.

 

Hmmm can you combine tea AND vodka???

[Mr. Incognito]

Well I only drink tea , or Vodka!!

 

Caz x

SEE!!!! OMG I CALLED THAT YOU POSTED THAT WHILE I WAS EDITING!!!!!!

[Snookie]

Don't make me friend all of you on google plus and have a cup of coffee with you all over a google hangout... because that would be awesome...

 

Its a lovely idea....but the time differences are a challenge.  Those of you on the East Coast are only 5 hours behind the UK, I on the West Coast am 8 hours behind.  So Caz is at home sipping on her vodka and tea, while I am sucking down coffee trying to get motivated this morning.   Caz is home, East Coasters are thinking about lunch and I missed a fun conversation.....

[Mr. Incognito]

So we have to do it on a weekend... then we all can drink for sure. 

[Snookie]

Whoo hooo....."its five o clock somewhere"

[Setanta]

Maybe I have mentioned it here, but a bar in my neck of the woods has a T-shirt that says "You can't drink all day, if you don't start in the morning..."

 

Funny at first glance, then it is kind of frightening.

[Snookie]

Maybe I have mentioned it here, but a bar in my neck of the woods has a T-shirt that says "You can't drink all day, if you don't start in the morning..."

 

Funny at first glance, then it is kind of frightening.

 

Your right...funny at first glance....terrifying if being followed. 

[Mr. Incognito]

Your right...funny at first glance....terrifying if being followed. 

 

So every other weekend I'm doing something wrong?

[Setanta]

 

 

So every other weekend I'm doing something wrong?

 

What happens on the weekends, stays on the weekends.  

Edited by Setanta, 20 June 2014 - 05:59 PM.