Jump to content

  • Quick Navigation
Photo

Documentation to support WIP Programs

Share this

  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic
- - - - -

it_rains_inside

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 341 posts
  • 99 thanks
46
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 29 July 2014 - 05:59 PM

Hello all,

 

With our BRC audit only 8 weeks away (eek!  :shutup: ) I am starting to really dig into the gap analysis and am finding that some of our programs (majorily secondary programs, like fill weights, record completion,product inspection, identity preserved, etc.) are a WIP program.

 

We have been with BRC for 5 years, and in those 5 years, changed QA managers 3 times. Finally my company decided on hiring a full-time quality systems coordinator (yours truly) to work beside the QA manager and concentrate on ensuring compliance (both to our GFSI scheme, as well as regulatory, and customer-based requirements). Since my "promotion" I have been working the last year to try and A. Feel out where our programs are at currently, and assess what needs to be done to get us to where we need to be and B. Attack the big dogs first so that we dont get any majors.

 

Now with that being said - some of the smaller programs I've had to kill and start over because they were just terrible (and some of them have just been built recently, ... like ... two weeks ago). While we are working towards full compliance, I know full implementation of a program (verification and validation) can take some time (time I dont have right now)  - and i think there might be some areas where an auditor may like to see some solid planning (documented progress).

 

So I guess here is my question - For those of you who are auditors, or for those who have been in similar situations, What is the best way to SHOW EVIDENCE of a program in progress??? (especially if you have multiple programs in different stages of implementation) 

 

Thank you all in advance for your help!!


"Peace is the result of retraining your mind to process life as it is, rather than as you think it should be"

                                -Wayne W. Dyer

 


Simon

    IFSQN...it's My Life

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 12,836 posts
  • 1363 thanks
884
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Married to Michelle, Father of three boys (Oliver, Jacob and Louis). I enjoy cycling, walking and travelling, watching sport, especially football and Manchester United. Oh and I love food and beer and wine.

Posted 29 July 2014 - 06:28 PM

Records.


Get FREE bitesize education with IFSQN webinar recordings.
 
Download this handy excel for desktop access to over 180 Food Safety Friday's webinar recordings.
https://www.ifsqn.com/fsf/Free%20Food%20Safety%20Videos.xlsx

 
Check out IFSQN’s extensive library of FREE food safety videos
https://www.ifsqn.com/food_safety_videos.html


fgjuadi

    Grade - PIFSQN

  • Banned
  • 898 posts
  • 203 thanks
28
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:53 PM

I understand your concern - if you don't have time to accumulate months of records, it's totally embarrassing to say "Well I made this program, but it's failing / not adopted".  I guess someone more professional would say - "We have assessed the risks and determined this is our process to minimize risk X. We are moving toward a solution and and employees are trained & following proper procedure currently".  If the auditor asks why you have so few entries / records, explain that it is a new program. 

 

Employee Training (the first training should show when you rolled out the program) , corrective actions, document control revision dates will usually show changes to a program or improvements and training you've made. 

 

To be honest - we're all always at various stages in programs.  Continuous improvement means nothing is ever perfect, so you have to keep tweaking programs to the biggest challenges.  You find a problem with the system, you correct it, you document the correction, and keep going.  Each new standard I see requires some tweaking / document language change / etc, so it's very common to have emerging programs. 

 

For example,. we're just starting to make sure our vendors have ethical policies in place, no child labor, etc.  I don't have statements or policies from all of my vendors yet, but an auditor can tell that I'm collecting them, and new vendor will be required to provide it,  and we have an effective date of the program for a month from now, which gives us some time to comply.  


.--. .- -. - ... / --- .--. - .. --- -. .- .-..

Bill78

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 55 posts
  • 30 thanks
5
Neutral

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Food Safety, Family, Golf and all things BBQ

Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:32 PM

Totally agree with magenta_major. (To be honest - we're all always at various stages in programs.)

 

My best advice is to make sure you have at least started every program that is required for the BRC. Six to eight weeks of records is actually quite a bit of data. The auditor is looking for compliance ( sometimes that means only a few weeks of data) and a culture of food safety. The more weeks, the better, but I would not be overly concerned with how many weeks you have....be more concerned that systems are working and people are trained. The first audit is a nerve racking experience but we have found that we are harder on ourselves than the auditors are. 

 

Just keep at it, your hard work will pay off!  :clap:



Charles.C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Moderator
  • 20,542 posts
  • 5665 thanks
1,545
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:SF
    TV
    Movies

Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:26 PM

Dear it rains inside,

 

I'm a little confused.

 

You mention Company has been with BRC for 5 years.

 

And this is the first audit ? That could be a record. :smile:

 

Or is it that "Company" has been certified / audited to BRC many times but this is first time for "yours truly"?

 

If latter, there is presumably a "passed" track record already existing which is what most newcomers initially fall back on. especially the items which had to be corrected following the audit(s).

 

My first assumption from experience  would be that certain requirements of BRC have zero to do with safety so are likely to be the least likely to be criticised within a FS System. My second assumption would be that most auditors have certain operational  "must have mastered" in mind based on their experience. HACCP for one.

 

You might also consider a look through R.Kill's text (eg via Google) which discusses  the basic expectations of a BRC audit. Quite helpful on some tricky topics.

 

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


jenmarshall

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 8 posts
  • 3 thanks
2
Neutral

  • United States
    United States

Posted 31 July 2014 - 09:08 PM

We all know where the warts are in our QMS and that in every audit situation some programs will be implemented more fully than others because we prioritize where we work based on risk and business need.  At a minimun, you want to make sure your written program is fully compliant with the standard and that you have training records for that program. From there, show the auditor what you have in terms of implementation, even if it is limited to a few days/weeks.  The audit trail will take them down the direction to know if you have implemented in good faith or if your program is "window dressing" - not that you would have that!  Good luck to you on your audit. 



djfitz1231

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Associate
  • 22 posts
  • 8 thanks
2
Neutral

  • United States
    United States

Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:39 AM

I understand your concern - if you don't have time to accumulate months of records, it's totally embarrassing to say "Well I made this program, but it's failing / not adopted".  I guess someone more professional would say - "We have assessed the risks and determined this is our process to minimize risk X. We are moving toward a solution and and employees are trained & following proper procedure currently".  If the auditor asks why you have so few entries / records, explain that it is a new program. 

 

Employee Training (the first training should show when you rolled out the program) , corrective actions, document control revision dates will usually show changes to a program or improvements and training you've made. 

 

To be honest - we're all always at various stages in programs.  Continuous improvement means nothing is ever perfect, so you have to keep tweaking programs to the biggest challenges.  You find a problem with the system, you correct it, you document the correction, and keep going.  Each new standard I see requires some tweaking / document language change / etc, so it's very common to have emerging programs. 

 

For example,. we're just starting to make sure our vendors have ethical policies in place, no child labor, etc.  I don't have statements or policies from all of my vendors yet, but an auditor can tell that I'm collecting them, and new vendor will be required to provide it,  and we have an effective date of the program for a month from now, which gives us some time to comply.  

I agree with this 100%.



Tony-C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 4,231 posts
  • 1292 thanks
611
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:World
  • Interests:My main interests are sports particularly football, pool, scuba diving, skiing and ten pin bowling.

Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:22 AM

Hello all,

 

With our BRC audit only 8 weeks away (eek!  :shutup: ) I am starting to really dig into the gap analysis and am finding that some of our programs (majorily secondary programs, like fill weights, record completion,product inspection, identity preserved, etc.) are a WIP program.

 

What is the best way to SHOW EVIDENCE of a program in progress??? (especially if you have multiple programs in different stages of implementation) 

 

Thank you all in advance for your help!!

 

I am a little surprised that your internal audits haven't highlighted any issues unless that is one of the areas that is also failing ;)

 

Document your findings and corrective action plans and follow up regularly. As a bonus this will be evidence of your proactivity internally if the audit goes badly.

 

Regards,

 

Tony



it_rains_inside

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 341 posts
  • 99 thanks
46
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:47 PM

Sorry for the confusion all. My company has been certified BRC many times - at the time of last years audit I was in this position only about 6 weeks (so that was technically my first full audit - however I was really only responsible for providing documentation and support, the QA manager led the audit. ) During previous years I ran the Inventory Control System so took part in the recall and warehousing sections of the audit only. 

 

This year will be my second full audit, but now I have a full year under my belt and a majority of the quality programs are now officially mine, and overall compliance to the standard is mine. 

 

I wrote- and re-wrote what I am trying to say here... long story short, I am not the kind of person that thinks "going through the motions" is an acceptable way of getting a passing grade on a GFSI audit.  If we say we are doing something, I want to go into that audit knowing full well that we are actually doing it. The problem is, I work for a company that doesnt care how we get the grade, just that we get it.  

 

The longer I am in this position, I am realizing you can't fake compliance, and if you do, you can't keep it up for long. My company wants to do business with the big dogs, and that's originally why we went BRC, without fully realizing how much effort it took to live 365 to these standards. So now there are A LOT of programs that have been started, and then deserted, and every year come audit time, we scramble to revive them long enough to get a passing grade, and then they go back to the graveyard until the next year. Well... that mind-set got us not one but 2 C grades last year, which is when they moved me to this position. So I have had to essentially build from scratch programs that should have been in place all along. I understand the whole continuous improvement concept, and I believe that starting over on a program that wasn't working falls under that umbrella, but what it really is .....

I want to go into this audit with a clear conscience. My original request was to really to find out how compassionate an auditor would be to hearing "Here is where I am in either the building phase, or the implementation phase of program X (even though as this is now our 6th year in BRC it **should** be much more established by now, it isn't... Here is what I have and here is what I have to follow up on.. and so on and so forth".

 

 I know I have a lot of work ahead of me, but I wanted to find out, possibly from someone who audits - what the best way to back myself up is. Where I don't yet have records - is establishing a CA a way to mitigate a NC? Risk Assessment? Program Map? 

 

Cause I dont want to have to say to an auditor "Oh yeah, if you look here on my day-planner, I was hoping to get to that next month"  


"Peace is the result of retraining your mind to process life as it is, rather than as you think it should be"

                                -Wayne W. Dyer

 


it_rains_inside

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 341 posts
  • 99 thanks
46
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:15 PM

I am a little surprised that your internal audits haven't highlighted any issues unless that is one of the areas that is also failing ;)

 

Document your findings and corrective action plans and follow up regularly. As a bonus this will be evidence of your proactivity internally if the audit goes badly.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

Tony, for a little (maybe too detailed) background. I wish the auditor we had last year would have failed us, and he had every right to. We had 2 majors, and 18 minors. We were sited last year on every single fundamental (some more than once)!!!! So are far as internal audits catching these problems, a little hard to do when the program was non-existent.

 

Like I was saying, you can only fake this stuff for so long before it catches up to you. We got away (MIRACULOUSLY, but with some very hard work) with only 1 minor on our 3rd audit last year (C- grade in Feb; C- grade in July; A- in October).... so now mgt. expects to see this miracle again this year - I think the only way we got what we did on our third audit was by showing dedication. We were building programs, and doing as much work on them as you can do in 6 weeks. 

A year later, and we are looking 100% better, especially on the fundamentals,  but some of the secondary programs I have yet to even start uncovering the problems, and i know they are there.... So i just keep plugging away and hope for the best!!  **fingers crossed**


"Peace is the result of retraining your mind to process life as it is, rather than as you think it should be"

                                -Wayne W. Dyer

 


Tony-C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 4,231 posts
  • 1292 thanks
611
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:World
  • Interests:My main interests are sports particularly football, pool, scuba diving, skiing and ten pin bowling.

Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:51 PM

Tony, for a little (maybe too detailed) background. I wish the auditor we had last year would have failed us, and he had every right to. We had 2 majors, and 18 minors. We were sited last year on every single fundamental (some more than once)!!!! So are far as internal audits catching these problems, a little hard to do when the program was non-existent.

 

Like I was saying, you can only fake this stuff for so long before it catches up to you. We got away (MIRACULOUSLY, but with some very hard work) with only 1 minor on our 3rd audit last year (C- grade in Feb; C- grade in July; A- in October).... so now mgt. expects to see this miracle again this year - I think the only way we got what we did on our third audit was by showing dedication. We were building programs, and doing as much work on them as you can do in 6 weeks. 

A year later, and we are looking 100% better, especially on the fundamentals,  but some of the secondary programs I have yet to even start uncovering the problems, and i know they are there.... So i just keep plugging away and hope for the best!!  **fingers crossed**

 

I don't understand the timescales of your audits, please explain.

 

If you got an A in October then you must have decent systems in place unless everyone really has 'dropped the baton'.

 

Regards,

 

Tony



it_rains_inside

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 341 posts
  • 99 thanks
46
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:53 PM

We received an A in January of 2012 - Shortly after this audit ( the QA manager became very ill ( he was older). This is where we started to lose control of the system, due to his health, much of his responsibility to keeping up the BRC standard declined along with him. He decided to retire at the end of the year, passing the baton onto the Micro Manager  ( The current QA manager). Our current manager did not see it necessary that we make up what had been missed from the previous year, several audits, annual review of the documents, senior management meetings, Review of the HACCP plan, etc....

 

So at our annual re certification...

We received a  C in February of 2013 - because of this we were required to re-audit in 6 months to maintain certification

 

However in that 6 months leading up to the second audit, he spent more time fighting fires in the QA lab, (between you and me, probably because all of the systems were failing) than working on following through on the things we were sighted for in February so...

 

We then received another C in July of 2013. This time we were hit hard (and like I said - rightfully so) because many of the NC's were sighted in the previous audit in some way or another...  concluding this monstrosity, (not to mention on the verge of losing accreditation [and therefore 90% of our customer base] I was "Promoted" to manage all audit / regulatory compliance. If we had waited 6 months we would have lost accreditation, so....

 

We decided to re-audit again (the third time in a single year) In October of 2013 - this meant I had 6 weeks as acting "Quality Systems Coordinator" to fix (or attempt to fix) essentially the whole system.

 

In October, we received only 1 minor NC. A lot of this was chalked up to an auditor that did not 100% understand our process (Aseptic beverage packaging), but if you ask me, it was because I busted my ass (And everyone else's) to get the shit we weren't doing done. We set up an internal audit program, Trained 30 internal auditors, set up a corrective action program and got it rolling, set-up a document control program and established a "gate-keeper", brought in Randolph's to train the entire management team on HACCP and PRP's, Installed new training software, Spent every weekend on GMP and Allergen training for the employees, Fired our old Pest Control company and brought on a company that knew what they were doing.... all in 6 weeks. Essentially, started over. And because of having evidence that we were committed to these changes, I believe that is why we got the grade we did. The auditor saw where we were in July and compared that to the progress we'd made since then.

 

Now a year later,  these major programs are alive and doing well. My role is to monitor these systems and improve them where and when I can - the continuous improvement aspect. The QA manager essentially just runs the lab now. (where audit compliance and managing the lab had been only one job in previous years). My concern now is secondary programs. Its been a TON of work just to keep all of the major elements alive, so I've tackled the secondary programs through internal audits and as time allowed.. however, I know that there are still some that aren't anywhere near where they need to be. This is where my anxiety is coming from - We have a new auditor this year, and I want to be able to show that we are still committed. As a company however, I can only do what resources allow (and for me that may mean letting us fail in areas to get the resources because mgt does not understand the importance of GFSI accreditation until it is on the verge of being gone. While these will most likely only be minor NC's - i was looking for a way to mitigate some of them through documenting the plan towards compliance.

For example, Our raw material inspection process. We have a written program now, we have started to inspect materials, but due to the large (and I mean LARGE) number of raw materials and the limited amount of capable staff, we do what we can right now. I have a plan, submitted to mgt, the explains the need for more resources to really be compliant to the standard, I have a RA for the type of monitoring we are currently doing, versus maybe what we should be doing, I have a year long plan to develop this program... 

 

But how many of these WIP programs is an auditor going to be ok with? Is having a written plan enough to dodge a NC? I guess at the end of the day, all we can do is keep working on it and take what ever the auditor gives us, but I'd sleep better at night knowing I have all of the solid evidence I need to show we are committed. Unfortunately, the manufacturing plant is owned by a Corporate Entity (that does mostly sales work) and they pull the purse strings. (we are sort of treated as a co-packer) I make my case for the importance of food safety, but usually my hands are tied until an auditor gives them the same news. 

Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but Im sort of at my wit's end! What's a girl to do!?!?!


"Peace is the result of retraining your mind to process life as it is, rather than as you think it should be"

                                -Wayne W. Dyer

 


Tony-C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 4,231 posts
  • 1292 thanks
611
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:World
  • Interests:My main interests are sports particularly football, pool, scuba diving, skiing and ten pin bowling.

Posted 02 August 2014 - 05:14 AM

This is where my anxiety is coming from - We have a new auditor this year, and I want to be able to show that we are still committed. As a company however, I can only do what resources allow (and for me that may mean letting us fail in areas to get the resources because mgt does not understand the importance of GFSI accreditation until it is on the verge of being gone. While these will most likely only be minor NC's - i was looking for a way to mitigate some of them through documenting the plan towards compliance.


Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but Im sort of at my wit's end! What's a girl to do!?!?!

 

I'm sure a lot of members can sympathize with your situation. As I said before document your corrective action/improvement plans, highlight them to the management and keep working through them.

 

A few minor NC's won't be the end of the world and at the end of the day if you are doing your best then nobody can ask for more so it is not worth getting stressed out over.

 

Regards,

 

Tony





Share this

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users