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#1 Lena Scott

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 02:47 AM

Hi everyone!

 

What do you do for audits that got a failed rating during your internal audits? Our company has an established scoring system for internal audits and we consider a grade below 75% as failure already.

 

During the past audit periods, we conduct follow-up audits within 30 days from the audit period. We then realize that we are doing the same thing for the audits that passed. 

 

Hope you could share your insights regarding this.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot!

Lena

 


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#2 upanes

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 03:03 AM

is there any corrective action taken for the audit findings?


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#3 Lena Scott

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 03:30 AM

is there any corrective action taken for the audit findings?

 

Hi upanes,

 

Yes, we require CA since FSSC requires this for audit findings.

 

 

I am just in search of a method to handle failed audits just like how Certifying Bodies handle Major NCs.. I am lacking of any options right now that I have to ask others about it. :)


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#4 RMAV

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 12:58 PM

It's been too long for me with the 22000 to remember clearly so there may be an applicable clause.  The way I approach it is risk assess each non-conformance.  To what degree does this non-conformance impact or potentially impact the product, personnel, etc.  How likely is it to occur if not addressed...

 

For example, I had a drain in a remote area in a low risk facility where the cover was just a little too high and held some water.  I scored that a fairly low risk on my risk scale.  On another, I had a rusty part (part replaced with non-stainless steel) as a food contact surface.  I scored that a "high" on the scale, with the added stipulation production could not commence until it was fixed, cleaned and sanitized (or disinfected for the folks outside USA).  If I were in an RTE meat plant and I found a food contact tool used periodically being stored partly in standing water on the floor, I would score that a "critical" where production could not continue until corrected and cleaned, and all product up to that point segregated and placed on hold (and eventually destroyed).

 

You can "fail" an audit but it does not have to be a show-stopper.  I'm more interested in the risk of each non-conformance.


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#5 Charles.C

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 01:33 PM

Hi Lena,

 

As per previous post, it may depend on exactly what generates yr "failed audit", eg in relation to "major NCs", etc

 

Cannot offhand say for fssc22000 but I think you will find that all of BRC, IFS, SQF standards  detail their grading systems. Seems likely that the website for  FSSC does also, somewhere. One reason for the detail  is that the result relates to subsequent auditorial follow-up.

 

May be a fundamental GFSI requirement for "recognition" ?.

 

Study of the BRC-SQF standards will reveal that their scoring systems vary substantially. All the methods in use which are "somehow" risk-based are inevitably subjective.

 

Various factory audit grading systems based on haccp such as via critical / serious / major / minor failures exist on the IT, some of which are on this forum.

 

You might post yr current scoring system  if you would like some direct comments.


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Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#6 JohnWheat

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Posted 08 January 2016 - 02:23 PM

As Charles says - like a lot of question on here, "it all depends"  :lol2:

A few more details my allow a more accurate answer?


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#7 Lena Scott

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:30 AM

It's been too long for me with the 22000 to remember clearly so there may be an applicable clause.  The way I approach it is risk assess each non-conformance.  To what degree does this non-conformance impact or potentially impact the product, personnel, etc.  How likely is it to occur if not addressed...

 

You can "fail" an audit but it does not have to be a show-stopper.  I'm more interested in the risk of each non-conformance.

 

Hi RMAV,

 

I totally see your point here.. We've been used to have an audit checklist wherein we score 2 for Compliance, Minor NC as 1 and Major NC as 0.

 

I am now in the process of proposing this to the Management Representative and see what we can do to improve our audit system. 

 

As for the rating, can you share how you evaluate your NCs?

 

 

Thanks! :)


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#8 Lena Scott

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 10:32 AM

Hi Lena,

 

As per previous post, it may depend on exactly what generates yr "failed audit", eg in relation to "major NCs", etc

 

Cannot offhand say for fssc22000 but I think you will find that all of BRC, IFS, SQF standards  detail their grading systems. Seems likely that the website for  FSSC does also, somewhere. One reason for the detail  is that the result relates to subsequent auditorial follow-up.

 

May be a fundamental GFSI requirement for "recognition" ?.

 

Study of the BRC-SQF standards will reveal that their scoring systems vary substantially. All the methods in use which are "somehow" risk-based are inevitably subjective.

 

Various factory audit grading systems based on haccp such as via critical / serious / major / minor failures exist on the IT, some of which are on this forum.

 

You might post yr current scoring system  if you would like some direct comments.

 

 

Hi Charles,

 

I'm now currently checking how other management systems rate their audits. As there is none for FSSC.

 

We just deviced a system wherein an audit below 75% is failed already. We use checklists and grade our audit findings as 2 for compliance, 1 for Minor NC and 0 for Major. Then we just compute the average of the score.


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#9 Charles.C

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 12:49 PM

Hi Charles,

 

I'm now currently checking how other management systems rate their audits. As there is none for FSSC.

 

We just deviced a system wherein an audit below 75% is failed already. We use checklists and grade our audit findings as 2 for compliance, 1 for Minor NC and 0 for Major. Then we just compute the average of the score.

 

The attachment below via google. I guess it's available from the fssc website.

 

Attached File  guidance-on-non-conformity-grading-and-time-frame-to-close-ncs-version....pdf   165.04KB   74 downloads

 

Also can see this thread -

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...udit-be-scored/

 

you may also find these of interest -

 

Attached File  BRC-SQF-FSSC22000 with respect to GFSI.pdf   216.61KB   54 downloads

 

Attached File  SGS_SSC_FSSC_22000_White_Paper.pdf   233.93KB   45 downloads


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Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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#10 RMAV

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Posted 11 January 2016 - 06:49 PM

 

As for the rating, can you share how you evaluate your NCs?

I can, but I would not call my system "mature" as yet.  It is more subjective than I'd like it to be, though I use a simple HACCP risk matrix.  I think what Charles C posted is probably more helpful to your specific situation.  I do not, at this point, employ an overall score for our internal audits.


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#11 Tony-C

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 06:16 AM

Hi everyone!

 

What do you do for audits that got a failed rating during your internal audits? Our company has an established scoring system for internal audits and we consider a grade below 75% as failure already.

 

During the past audit periods, we conduct follow-up audits within 30 days from the audit period. We then realize that we are doing the same thing for the audits that passed. 

 

Hope you could share your insights regarding this.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot!

Lena

 

Hi Lena,

 

Without understanding your scoring system and number of 'failed' audits you get it is difficult to comment but as per RMAV:

 

 

It's been too long for me with the 22000 to remember clearly so there may be an applicable clause.  The way I approach it is risk assess each non-conformance.  To what degree does this non-conformance impact or potentially impact the product, personnel, etc.  How likely is it to occur if not addressed...

 

You can "fail" an audit but it does not have to be a show-stopper.  I'm more interested in the risk of each non-conformance.

 

I would focus on the NC's and following up on those. I tend to use audit scores for trend analysis to identify trends in compliance but also take into account scores/trends when scheduling audits.

 

You would normally rate your NC's on compliance with the standard you are working with and along their rating system. So as Charles has posted regarding FSSC Major and Minor as per the criteria. Major NC's are usually significant system failures or where product safety is in doubt.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony


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#12 RMAV

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 08:05 PM

Wise advice, Tony. Thank you


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#13 TAN85

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 08:54 AM

Hi Lena,

 

I think it's a  good idea to keep the system the same for both passed and failed audits, as it allows to follow up any corrective action pending. 

With regards to NC do you take into account documented corrective action? If available then it really isn't a NC. No one assumes systems are perfect, it is how you deal with anomalies that makes the difference. 

 

For FSSC (I'm only newly certified here so if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me :)   )  there is a marked difference between the types of NCs as Charles pointed out. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your audit form to determine what has been classified as a a Major NC as typically this would indicate an obvious product contamination or a complete system breakdown, as Tony pointed out. 75% is a  good benchmark to maintain, but it may also be you are being quite harsh with scoring.

 

Again, if a particular NC has adequate and documented corrective action and the situation can be shown to be under control, then it would minimise the severity of it. (So if it is classified a Major NC, the fact that it has been controlled would now make it a minor). 

 

I hope this makes sense!


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#14 GMO

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 10:09 PM

We don't do FSSC22000 but the only audits we score are GMP audits which are weekly.  If there is a failure (which from memory we set at 60%) we reaudit within the week.  This is practical because the majority of issues are behavioural and so at least initially are quickly addressed and then checked again in the following week.  Audits are always accompanied as well to ensure the auditee really understands what went wrong.

 

Doing it this way massively improved standards.  I'm not sure if that's a help to your situation?


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#15 Lena Scott

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 06:52 AM

We don't do FSSC22000 but the only audits we score are GMP audits which are weekly.  If there is a failure (which from memory we set at 60%) we reaudit within the week.  This is practical because the majority of issues are behavioural and so at least initially are quickly addressed and then checked again in the following week.  Audits are always accompanied as well to ensure the auditee really understands what went wrong.

 

Doing it this way massively improved standards.  I'm not sure if that's a help to your situation?

 

Hi GMO!
 

Do you do the same for your internal system audits?


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#16 GMO

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 06:55 AM

Hi GMO!
 

Do you do the same for your internal system audits?

 

No we don't.  It's not practical.  We raise non conformances then inspect or have objective evidence it's been completed prior to signing it off.  We have so many internal audits as we supply nearly every UK retailer and the biggies world wide too so it's a question of time.  The audit team is only 8 of us for systems audits over two factories.


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