Jump to content

  • Quick Navigation
Photo
- - - - -

Quality Defined


  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 Wallace Tait

Wallace Tait

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 174 posts
  • 2 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Systems thinking, Soccer (Glasgow Rangers), Family, the pusuit of truth and freedom

Posted 22 February 2004 - 01:37 AM

What's your definition of quality, outwith the constraints of the ISO standards? :rolleyes:
Wallace.


  • 0

#2 Puzzle

Puzzle

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 254 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Interests:Petrolhead, sleeping, too much food and many other items that are forgotten!!

Posted 22 February 2004 - 10:21 AM

Product wise - Fit for purpose

Systems wise - Say what you do, and then do it.

And then the rub, if an improvement can be identified and actioned with the above - do it (within commercial constraints)

Perhaps naively simplistic, but thats me at the moment. Back to basics. :wacko:

Chris


  • 0

#3 Wallace Tait

Wallace Tait

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 174 posts
  • 2 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Systems thinking, Soccer (Glasgow Rangers), Family, the pusuit of truth and freedom

Posted 22 February 2004 - 03:27 PM

My definition has changed a few times, but I've come up with my own generic chant.

Quality may be defined as:

The realization of value added steps,
Driven by needs, that fulfil a desired outcome.


If I were to give quality a one word definition, I would say" REALIZATION".
Wallace.


  • 0

#4 Simon

Simon

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 11,390 posts
  • 1018 thanks
222
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Life, Family, Running, Cycling, Manager of a Football Team, Work, Watching Sport, The Internet, Food, Real Ale and Sleeping...

Posted 22 February 2004 - 10:06 PM

ISO 8402 - Quality management and quality assurance - Vocabulary, defines quality as:

'The totality of features and characteristics of a product or service that bear on its ability to satisfy stated or implied needs'

ISO 8402 Scope: Defines the fundamental terms relating to quality concepts, as they apply to all areas, for the preparation and use of quality-related standards and for mutual understanding in international communications.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
It's not bad, my definiton today is:

"Achieving the optimum level of satisfaction for All interested parties"

Regards,
Simon


  • 0

Best Regards,

Simon Timperley
IFSQN Administrator
 
hand-pointing-down.gif

Need food safety advice?
Relax, you've come to the right place…

The IFSQN is a helpful network of volunteers providing answers and support. Check out the forums and get free advice from the experts on food safety management systems and a wide range of food safety topics.

 
We could make a huge list of rules, terms and conditions, but you probably wouldn’t read them.

All that we ask is that you observe the following:


1. No spam, profanity, pornography, trolling or personal attacks

2. Topics and posts should be “on topic” and related to site content
3. No (unpaid) advertising
4. You may have one account on the board at any one time
5. Enjoy your stay!


#5 Wallace Tait

Wallace Tait

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 174 posts
  • 2 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Systems thinking, Soccer (Glasgow Rangers), Family, the pusuit of truth and freedom

Posted 23 February 2004 - 12:08 AM

The ISO 8042 definition,
Well it's so ISO, isn't it?
I have recently decided to assist (as a freebie) a warehousing organization that wishes to develop their own particular BMS.
They have in the past had, a quality system that was developed upon the requirements of ISO 9001 and, yes they were registered.
I wasn't surprised at all, when asked to develop a quality system that basically walked away from the ISO 9001 requirements. There's almost a wholesale rejection of the registration process in certain quarters here in North America.
Back to the SDF with this one.
Wallace.


  • 0

#6 Simon

Simon

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 11,390 posts
  • 1018 thanks
222
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Life, Family, Running, Cycling, Manager of a Football Team, Work, Watching Sport, The Internet, Food, Real Ale and Sleeping...

Posted 24 February 2004 - 08:19 AM

There's almost a wholesale rejection of the registration process in certain quarters here in North America.
Back to the SDF with this one.
Wallace.

Hi Wallace,

Are there any facts and figures to back up what you are saying, or is it just a general 'on the ground' feeling?

Simon
  • 0

Best Regards,

Simon Timperley
IFSQN Administrator
 
hand-pointing-down.gif

Need food safety advice?
Relax, you've come to the right place…

The IFSQN is a helpful network of volunteers providing answers and support. Check out the forums and get free advice from the experts on food safety management systems and a wide range of food safety topics.

 
We could make a huge list of rules, terms and conditions, but you probably wouldn’t read them.

All that we ask is that you observe the following:


1. No spam, profanity, pornography, trolling or personal attacks

2. Topics and posts should be “on topic” and related to site content
3. No (unpaid) advertising
4. You may have one account on the board at any one time
5. Enjoy your stay!


#7 Wallace Tait

Wallace Tait

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 174 posts
  • 2 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Systems thinking, Soccer (Glasgow Rangers), Family, the pusuit of truth and freedom

Posted 24 February 2004 - 01:09 PM

Yeah,
There are figures to be had.
I recall viewing the figures at the C*#! recently, can't remember at this time where the thread was located.
I have worked with a few Ford suppliers who basically said, they no longer had the incentive to remain registered to the ISO9001 standards yet wished to use the standard as their organization wide Business Management Standard.
I guess the cost's associated with maintaining registration and the headaches related to registrar audits have become restrictive to say the least.
I want to say, I don't particularly agree with this stance yet, I'm getting feedback from many suppliers to Ford that, the ISO standards and other OEM add-in requirements are becoming too restrictive to supplier business management cost's.
There is for sure, lots too digest with this debate of Register or not and, use and conform to the ISO standard or, make it the formal organization wide management system standard.
Back to SDF.
Wallace


  • 0

#8 Simon

Simon

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 11,390 posts
  • 1018 thanks
222
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Life, Family, Running, Cycling, Manager of a Football Team, Work, Watching Sport, The Internet, Food, Real Ale and Sleeping...

Posted 24 February 2004 - 02:51 PM

There is a very interesting and heated 'petition debate' on the ISO1stop forum.

http://www.iso1stop....show.cgi?34/628

On a company by company basis I suppose it's very much down to what your customer(s) want. As an overall trend I'm still to be convinced of a 'wholesale rejection' and I am more inclined toward the saturation and deceleration theory.

I don't have any facts...

Regards,
Simon


  • 0

Best Regards,

Simon Timperley
IFSQN Administrator
 
hand-pointing-down.gif

Need food safety advice?
Relax, you've come to the right place…

The IFSQN is a helpful network of volunteers providing answers and support. Check out the forums and get free advice from the experts on food safety management systems and a wide range of food safety topics.

 
We could make a huge list of rules, terms and conditions, but you probably wouldn’t read them.

All that we ask is that you observe the following:


1. No spam, profanity, pornography, trolling or personal attacks

2. Topics and posts should be “on topic” and related to site content
3. No (unpaid) advertising
4. You may have one account on the board at any one time
5. Enjoy your stay!


#9 Wallace Tait

Wallace Tait

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 174 posts
  • 2 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Interests:Systems thinking, Soccer (Glasgow Rangers), Family, the pusuit of truth and freedom

Posted 25 February 2004 - 01:50 PM

I am more inclined toward the saturation and deceleration theory.

You have a very valid point Simon.
Wallace.
  • 0

#10 Puzzle

Puzzle

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 254 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Interests:Petrolhead, sleeping, too much food and many other items that are forgotten!!

Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:17 PM

It could also be the appearance of many 'specific' types of standards, and the various businesses are choosing to go down this route.


  • 0

#11 Jim Wade

Jim Wade

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 123 posts
  • 0 thanks
1
Neutral
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:All aspects of continual improvement

Posted 26 February 2004 - 12:02 PM

Definition of 'quality'? My opinion?

1
All generic definitions of Q are of very little practical use - they are helpful only to help us 'get' principles.

2
The following applies perfectly to all organisations and to all situations. IMO.

- Quality is defined by whatever your current measurable objectives state.

- Quality is measured by the degree of deviation between what the objectives stated and what you actually achieved.

Easy. Comments?

rgds Jim


  • 0

#12 Simon

Simon

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 11,390 posts
  • 1018 thanks
222
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Life, Family, Running, Cycling, Manager of a Football Team, Work, Watching Sport, The Internet, Food, Real Ale and Sleeping...

Posted 26 February 2004 - 01:04 PM

Jim, :king:

I'm finding it very difficult to argue...probably because you're right.

Then again what if your measurable objectives or the importance which you (the supplier) place on them are out of sync with say your customers?

Just a thought...

Simon

BTW Puzzle you make a good point re the introduction of other certificate and industry specific schemes and standards contributing to the 'mooted' drop-off in ISO certificates.
.


  • 0

Best Regards,

Simon Timperley
IFSQN Administrator
 
hand-pointing-down.gif

Need food safety advice?
Relax, you've come to the right place…

The IFSQN is a helpful network of volunteers providing answers and support. Check out the forums and get free advice from the experts on food safety management systems and a wide range of food safety topics.

 
We could make a huge list of rules, terms and conditions, but you probably wouldn’t read them.

All that we ask is that you observe the following:


1. No spam, profanity, pornography, trolling or personal attacks

2. Topics and posts should be “on topic” and related to site content
3. No (unpaid) advertising
4. You may have one account on the board at any one time
5. Enjoy your stay!


#13 Jim Wade

Jim Wade

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 123 posts
  • 0 thanks
1
Neutral
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:All aspects of continual improvement

Posted 26 February 2004 - 02:57 PM

"... what if your measurable objectives or the importance which you (the supplier) place on them are out of sync with say your customers?"

Good question, Simon. That might be the case; and if we know about it, we will presumably adjust the objectives to get them 'right', giving us a better definition of Q.

If we don't know, then we stick with the somewhat more inadequate objectives and then we have - for the time being, at least - a definition of Q that is not as good as it could be. Maybe it's even a really crap definition. But if that's what we've decided we are shooting for, then that's our Q definition, for good or for bad!

rgds Jim
  • 0

#14 Simon

Simon

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 11,390 posts
  • 1018 thanks
222
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Life, Family, Running, Cycling, Manager of a Football Team, Work, Watching Sport, The Internet, Food, Real Ale and Sleeping...

Posted 14 March 2004 - 08:16 PM

In order that our definition of quality is accurate shouldn't it be whatever our customer(s) says it is - today?

Regards,
Simon


  • 0

Best Regards,

Simon Timperley
IFSQN Administrator
 
hand-pointing-down.gif

Need food safety advice?
Relax, you've come to the right place…

The IFSQN is a helpful network of volunteers providing answers and support. Check out the forums and get free advice from the experts on food safety management systems and a wide range of food safety topics.

 
We could make a huge list of rules, terms and conditions, but you probably wouldn’t read them.

All that we ask is that you observe the following:


1. No spam, profanity, pornography, trolling or personal attacks

2. Topics and posts should be “on topic” and related to site content
3. No (unpaid) advertising
4. You may have one account on the board at any one time
5. Enjoy your stay!


#15 Puzzle

Puzzle

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 254 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral
  • Interests:Petrolhead, sleeping, too much food and many other items that are forgotten!!

Posted 14 March 2004 - 10:25 PM

Having just scanned through this thread again, it seems to me there is not a defined statement for 'Quality' except what is 'acceptable' at the instant it is considered.

We all have the customer that insists on the best, but when they are desperate they will accept anything!!!

'Quality' (or part of it) is supposed to be about continuously improviing. Therefore the definition of quality will change.


  • 0

#16 Jim Wade

Jim Wade

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 123 posts
  • 0 thanks
1
Neutral
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:All aspects of continual improvement

Posted 14 March 2004 - 11:34 PM

"In order that our definition of quality is accurate shouldn’t it be whatever our customer(s) says it is - today?"

Well, as the 'excellence' models remind us, we have several stakeholders to satisfy.

Not taking the customers' needs & wants closely into account would not be smart, but they cannot determine all our objectives. And what do objectives make...?

IMO

rgds

Jim
  • 0

#17 Simon

Simon

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 11,390 posts
  • 1018 thanks
222
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Life, Family, Running, Cycling, Manager of a Football Team, Work, Watching Sport, The Internet, Food, Real Ale and Sleeping...

Posted 15 March 2004 - 09:07 AM

And what do objectives make…?

PRIZES!!!

Or was that points? :dunno:

My original definition was / is:

"Achieving the optimum level of satisfaction for All interested parties"

Or 'stakeholders' - and I think this more or less reflects what you were saying in your last post Jim. In reality how many organizations go beyond defining customer and shareholder-based objectives?

ISO 9004:2000 (8.2.4) Measurement and monitoring the satisfaction of interested parties, states:

"The organization should identify the measurement information required to meet the needs of interested parties (other than customers) [my bold emphasis], in relation to the processes of the organization in order to balance the allocation of resources. Such information should include measurements relating to the people in the organization, owners and investors, suppliers and partners, as well as society…" As well as much more…

ISO 9001:2000 (8.2.1) Customer satisfaction, requires:

"As one of the measurements of the performance of the quality management system, the organization shall monitor information relating to customer perception as to whether the organization has met customer requirements. The methods for obtaining and using this information shall be determined.

ISO 9001:2000 does also require that quality objectives are consistent with the quality policy, but it's not prescriptive and is left to the organization to determine.

I argue that before we fully understand the needs of All stakeholders, and have set measurable objectives for their satisfaction and improvement. In most case we will find it very difficult to accurately develop objectives for products or processes.

Regards,
Simon


  • 0

Best Regards,

Simon Timperley
IFSQN Administrator
 
hand-pointing-down.gif

Need food safety advice?
Relax, you've come to the right place…

The IFSQN is a helpful network of volunteers providing answers and support. Check out the forums and get free advice from the experts on food safety management systems and a wide range of food safety topics.

 
We could make a huge list of rules, terms and conditions, but you probably wouldn’t read them.

All that we ask is that you observe the following:


1. No spam, profanity, pornography, trolling or personal attacks

2. Topics and posts should be “on topic” and related to site content
3. No (unpaid) advertising
4. You may have one account on the board at any one time
5. Enjoy your stay!


#18 Jim Wade

Jim Wade

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 123 posts
  • 0 thanks
1
Neutral
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:All aspects of continual improvement

Posted 15 March 2004 - 10:07 AM

"In most case we will find it very difficult to accurately develop objectives for products or processes"

Three thoughts here:

1 Measurements need only be accurate enough.

2 If it ain't measurable, it don't matter.

3 If we want to improve results, we must improve processes, so we must measure them.

rgds Jim

PS sorry my comments are curt - I'm downgraded to a clunky laptop since BTopenworld is down and I want to get off it fast and back to a real computer (=Mac). :crybaby:
  • 0

#19 Simon

Simon

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Admin
  • 11,390 posts
  • 1018 thanks
222
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Manchester
  • Interests:Life, Family, Running, Cycling, Manager of a Football Team, Work, Watching Sport, The Internet, Food, Real Ale and Sleeping...

Posted 15 March 2004 - 10:36 AM

3  If we want to improve results, we must improve processes, so we must measure them.

No probs so long as the objectives of the process are in alignment with the strategic objectives - obviously where practicable.

So a macman, everyone who has used both a mac and a PC say that macs are far superior - I should try. I mean who in the hell would put the shutdown option in the 'start' menu? :dunno:

Regards,
Simon
  • 0

Best Regards,

Simon Timperley
IFSQN Administrator
 
hand-pointing-down.gif

Need food safety advice?
Relax, you've come to the right place…

The IFSQN is a helpful network of volunteers providing answers and support. Check out the forums and get free advice from the experts on food safety management systems and a wide range of food safety topics.

 
We could make a huge list of rules, terms and conditions, but you probably wouldn’t read them.

All that we ask is that you observe the following:


1. No spam, profanity, pornography, trolling or personal attacks

2. Topics and posts should be “on topic” and related to site content
3. No (unpaid) advertising
4. You may have one account on the board at any one time
5. Enjoy your stay!





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users