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Cooling of meat pies - CCP?

HACCP

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#1 chrissieb

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 01:54 PM

Hi

I wonder if you can help.

We make savoury puddings. We cook a beef filling and then cool it before depositing it onto pastry and wrapping the next day.

The requirement for cooling has always been < 30 within 2 hours before transferring to a fridge.

 

I have identified the growth of survived bacteria as a hazard and I think cooling generally should be a CCP but as we are still in the danger zone after 2 hours can it be? Also if the puddings are steamed the following day to a temp of 72 degrees. Is the cooling a control point rather than a CCP as the subsequent step will reduce the hazard to an acceptable level?

 

Thanks in advance.


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#2 Gerard H.

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 09:10 PM

Hi Chrissie,

 

It's just a question of following the HACCP decision tree.

 

In addition to what you wrote and from an outside point of view, I would like to advise to consider spore-forming bacteria, heat resistents and toxins formed by bacteria. Also look to eventual re-contamination sources and the outgrowth which can be caused by this. And last but not least, whether the reached core temperature is really sufficient to serve as the required killing step.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gerard Heerkens


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#3 Charles.C

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 01:28 AM

Hi

I wonder if you can help.

We make savoury puddings. We cook a beef filling and then cool it before depositing it onto pastry and wrapping the next day.

The requirement for cooling has always been < 30 within 2 hours before transferring to a fridge.

 

I have identified the growth of survived bacteria as a hazard and I think cooling generally should be a CCP but as we are still in the danger zone after 2 hours can it be? Also if the puddings are steamed the following day to a temp of 72 degrees. Is the cooling a control point rather than a CCP as the subsequent step will reduce the hazard to an acceptable level?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Hi chrissie,

 

Baking etc not my area but, as maybe yourself, I dont quite understand the process logic.

 

I assume "30" = 30degC

I think the "2 hr-type" criterion you mention is typically half of the usual cooling "rules" for cooked products as exampled in many documents, ie the fridge portion is missing.

 

Assuming first treatment is to fully cook/cool (is it ?), why do you then steam it again (raw pastry?) ? Or is the latter by the customer ?

Is the product frozen ?

 

IMO answer yr second query depends on specific risk assessment/process details etc such as indicated above.

 

Some possibly related details are in these threads/sublink -

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...gard-to-spores/

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...ing-guidelines/

 

Just as an illustration (rather dissimilar process) here is a classic/(very)basic UK meat pie haccp plan -

 

Attached File  HACCP Plan template cooked meat pies.pdf   63.31KB   7 downloads


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Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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#4 chrissieb

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 08:05 AM

Thank you for your replies, they are much appreciated. I have clicked on the links and they have been really informative.

Yes the main hazard is survival of spore forming bacteria. The initial filling is heated to a temperature of 92 degrees (but as we know spores may survive).

30 degrees celsius within 2 hours is the current stated cooling time 

I think the "2 hr-type" criterion you mention is typically half of the usual cooling "rules" - I can't find any documents that reference these cooling rules.

The finished product is steamed again too a core temperature of 72 degrees as otherwise the pastry would be raw. It is then ready to eat but generally people will re-heat as they prefer them hot.

 

Im trying to find data that supports the fact that the cooling time frame we work to ensures that Clostridium Perfrigen spores will not have time to germinate. There seems to be very little guidance on cooling other than for meat joints. Also because there are two "cooking" steps and two "cooling" steps, it has made it quite challenging.


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#5 Charles.C

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:15 AM

Hi chrissie,
 

 

I can't find any documents that reference these

 

 

Actually the US POV (which contains the C.perfringens theory) is detailed in the links in my previous post but it will take some reading, eg, inter alia, via the links/attachments in this post -

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...age/#entry47768

 

For the, perhaps more direct,  operational Australian POV,  can google "cooling 2/4 hour rule"

 

Or for UK variants of 2/4 hr add a prefix "UK" then google.eg -

https://www.mobcater...ding-hours.html

 

I am unclear as to purpose 1st stage, eg why a core temperature of 92degC. I assume some kind of pre-cook.

 

Seems there are 2 "stages" / 2 particular hazards  (a) slow cooling in stage 1 permitting C.perfringens to germinate/multiply, (b) inadequate heating/cooling in 2nd stage to detroy vegetative pathogens /control any existing C. perfringens spores.

 

I suggest 2 CCPs. Or a combined CCP.

 

It's not my food area so meat professionals may hv alternative solutions. :smile:


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Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#6 chrissieb

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:35 AM

Thank you very much Charles


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#7 Charles.C

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 04:45 AM

Hi Chrissieb,

 

A few more related documents attached. Varying issue dates.

Achieving the theoretical cooling recommendations has been shown (previous links) to be difficult in practice without blast chillers. The last attachment illustrates one method to maximize cooling efficiency but it looks problematic for large scale production.

 

Attached File  NZ pathogen micro . data sheet,2001 - clostridium-perfringens.pdf   31.81KB   0 downloads

Attached File  Minnesota, 2015,Cooking-Cooling Food, Temperature -Time requirements.pdf   313.73KB   1 downloads

Attached File  food - safe cooling,2009.pdf   272.02KB   1 downloads


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Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C






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