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#26 charlorne

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 12:08 AM

Hello Cazyrcymru

Good question .. You are right .. Clause 7 of ISO 22000 deals with specific Food Safety.

ISO 22000 has everything to do with a MANAGEMENT SYSTEM that includes 5 clauses:

Clauses 4, 5 and 6 are essentially carry over from the ISO 9001 QUALITY Management system,

Clause 7 is specific to FOOD SAFETY and includes essentially the long established GMP and HACCP requirements, and

Clause 8 is a combination of Quality and Food Safety requirements.

Yes, it would be possible to have two systems .. one for ISO 9001 and one for ISO 22000.

Obviously, this would not be very practical and expensive because of the needless duplications would result from very similar/identical procedures and systems required for the requirements of clauses 4, 5, 6 & 8.

For ISO 9001, clause 7 is called "product / service" realization and applies to non-food systems.

For ISO 22000, clause 7 is tittled "Planning and realization of safe products" and applies to food related systems.

It is not a matter of ISO 22000 superceding ISO 9001 .. it is a matter of applying the appropriate standard to your type of business.
It becomes clear that if you are in the "Food business" ISO 22000 is the standard that covers food safety management systems requirements for any organization in the food chain .. and running parallel ISO 9001 & ISO 22000 will not enhance your food safety management system .. It will complicate the process and will probably drastically affect your profit picture.

A word of caution .. Do not let consultants complicate things for you .. they may try to do that .. it often results in increased billeable hour$$.

Since the topic of this discussion is "Management Review", make sure that your upper management is well versed in both the ISO 9001 and ISO 22000 requirements .. you may include Training for them as an agenda item for your next management review.

Cheers

I do not use the term 'expert', but I know ISO 9001 and ISO 22000 :-))

Lorne


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#27 MartLgn

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 08:37 AM

If you want quality too, you run both 22k and 9001 together.


In a nutshell - spot on ! :thumbup:
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Why put off until tomorrow that which you can avoid doing altogether ?

#28 Simon

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 08:53 AM

Great Avatar BTW Martin:

There is no more Clan Logan now, which is too bad. But while there was one, there motto was: Hoc Majorum Virtus, which means, "This is the value of my ancestors!" There clan crest is the human heart being pierced by the nail of passion! :o And there battle cry is "Druim-nan deur!" (The ridge of tears).


If only my heritage was as blood curdlingly passionate. ;)

Simon
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#29 MartLgn

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 09:21 AM

Hello Cazyrcymru

Good question .. You are right .. Clause 7 of ISO 22000 deals with specific Food Safety.

ISO 22000 has everything to do with a MANAGEMENT SYSTEM that includes 5 clauses:

Clauses 4, 5 and 6 are essentially carry over from the ISO 9001 QUALITY Management system,

Clause 7 is specific to FOOD SAFETY and includes essentially the long established GMP and HACCP requirements, and

Clause 8 is a combination of Quality and Food Safety requirements.

Yes, it would be possible to have two systems .. one for ISO 9001 and one for ISO 22000.

Obviously, this would not be very practical and expensive because of the needless duplications would result from very similar/identical procedures and systems required for the requirements of clauses 4, 5, 6 & 8.

For ISO 9001, clause 7 is called "product / service" realization and applies to non-food systems.

For ISO 22000, clause 7 is tittled "Planning and realization of safe products" and applies to food related systems.

It is not a matter of ISO 22000 superceding ISO 9001 .. it is a matter of applying the appropriate standard to your type of business.
It becomes clear that if you are in the "Food business" ISO 22000 is the standard that covers food safety management systems requirements for any organization in the food chain .. and running parallel ISO 9001 & ISO 22000 will not enhance your food safety management system .. It will complicate the process and will probably drastically affect your profit picture.

A word of caution .. Do not let consultants complicate things for you .. they may try to do that .. it often results in increased billeable hour$$.

Since the topic of this discussion is "Management Review", make sure that your upper management is well versed in both the ISO 9001 and ISO 22000 requirements .. you may include Training for them as an agenda item for your next management review.

Cheers

I do not use the term 'expert', but I know ISO 9001 and ISO 22000 :-))

Lorne


Lorne.

It is a laudable ideal to reduce the complication and expense of running both IS022K and 9001 systems side by side but if you wish to have a certified QMS whilst having certification to ISO 22k then I see little choice. Simplicity and economy have IMO never been a priority for ISO and will be even less so now they have another standard to promote.

As James illustrated having 22k does nothing to ensure customer satisfaction in anything other than product safety which leaves an ISO 9001 shaped hole where your QMS should be. This is one reason why the BRC/IOP standard is prevalant in the UK packagning industry, the QMS required can be a ISO 9001 clone but without the need for seperate certification.
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#30 MartLgn

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 09:25 AM

Great Avatar BTW Martin:
If only my heritage was as blood curdlingly passionate. ;)

Simon


Nice research Simon !

I was thinking of telling customers it stood for 'more prerequisite programs'. :biggrin:

The kilt is in the wardrobe till summer :blush:
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#31 Charles.C

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 10:03 AM

Dear All,

Interesting thread, well illustrates the various interpretations of ISO intentions.

I know it’s OT but the thread also demonstrates for simple people like myself why a “simple” HACCP certification + ISO9k2k has some attractions (I presume this was part of the safety / management concept of BRC, regardless of its other diligence aspects).
I have just remembered one basic formula – Food Quality = Food safety parameters + Food non-safety parameters (ie the “rest”). No doubt other equations are in use also, not that the specification of what constitutes a safety/non-safety parameter is always black/white of course.
(Narrow example for seafood – salmonella is a food safety parameter, decomposition is a food non-safety parameter but both are quality parameters, obviously).
I realize ISO is attempting to systematize a very wide and complex situation but with all respect, the above discussion suggests to me that there is yet some way to go. I fear that for the average user the preceding is more of a warning to avoid ISO22k if at all possible.


Rgds / Charles.C


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Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#32 cazyncymru

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 11:12 AM

It is not a matter of ISO 22000 superceding ISO 9001 .. it is a matter of applying the appropriate standard to your type of business.
It becomes clear that if you are in the "Food business" ISO 22000 is the standard that covers food safety management systems requirements for any organization in the food chain .. and running parallel ISO 9001 & ISO 22000 will not enhance your food safety management system .. It will complicate the process and will probably drastically affect your profit picture.

I do not use the term 'expert', but I know ISO 9001 and ISO 22000 :-))

Lorne



Lorne

As i wear the group "Quality & Systems" managers hat for a very large "food business" i am more than aware of the differences in the two standards.

And as a "food business" whilst the primary concern is food safety, we find that by implementing a good HACCP system we can cover the food safety issues.

By implementing ISO 9001 we can placate our customers in that i am giving consideration not only to food safety but to food quality.

Hence why we as a company will not for the foreseeable future be implementing 22K, and won't unless "forced to" by our customers.
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#33 Simon

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 11:17 AM

Lorne

As i wear the group "Quality & Systems" managers hat for a very large "food business" i am more than aware of the differences in the two standards.

And as a "food business" whilst the primary concern is food safety, we find that by implementing a good HACCP system we can cover the food safety issues.

By implementing ISO 9001 we can placate our customers in that i am giving consideration not only to food safety but to food quality.

Hence why we as a company will not for the foreseeable future be implementing 22K, and won't unless "forced to" by our customers.

ISO 9000 + ISO 22000 = ISO 31000, Hey an integrated food safety and quality management system standard. :thumbup: Oh I forgot about Environmental and Health and Safety and what about CSR??? Now let's see that's 31000 + 14000.... :doh:
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Best Regards,

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Need food safety advice?
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#34 cazyncymru

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 11:22 AM

Nice research Simon !

I was thinking of telling customers it stood for 'more prerequisite programs'. :biggrin:

The kilt is in the wardrobe till summer :blush:



:off_topic:

MMMMM wonder what Mart wears under his kilt??? :whistle:

i have to wait to summer to find out!!!!
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#35 cazyncymru

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 11:28 AM

ISO 9000 + ISO 22000 = ISO 31000, Hey an integrated food safety and quality management system standard. :thumbup: Oh I forgot about Environmental and Health and Safety and what about CSR??? Now let's see that's 31000 + 14000.... :doh:



Good to see your Maths is as good as mine Simon!!
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#36 charlorne

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 01:15 PM

Cazyncymru

The assessment of your situation makes a lot of sense .. with a sound HACCP system supplemented with ISO 9001, your company will be in a position to satisfy customers and meet objectives set and reviewed by management at your Management Review meetings.

Since ISO and other standards are 'voluntary' and not 'mandatory' standards, the participants at your management reviews can on an on-going basis discuss future plans which may include the implementation of the ISO 22000. The good news is that with HACCP & ISO 9001 implemented, you are approximately 90% in compliance with ISO 22000.

Best of luck
Cheers
Lorne


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#37 selminay

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 03:21 PM

Im no expert but i asked this question in today .
22k is nothing to do with quality, it's only concern is Food Safety.

If you want quality too, you run both 22k and 9001 together.

Some of the documentation needed is common to both and this is why people make the mistake of thinking that 22K is superceding 9001. If you want a accreditation for Food Saferty & Quality then you need accreditation to both.



In addition, certified with both ISO 9000 and ISO 22000 depends on customer requirement. If customer wants to see, you pay more. It is management decision.

But personally, I am looking for ISO 22k certification at food companies.

Regards,
Selmin
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#38 Charles Chew

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 08:53 AM

Dear all,

Having followed this thread with interest, it frightens me to realise that after the release of ISO 22K Standard for more than a year now, we still have a huge divergence in opinion on the purpose and objective of this FSMS.

While every opinion given is worth a thought, the member seeking such opinions must know how to differentiate whats correct, likely to be correct or a complete pass over.

In the course of my audit experiences on ISO 22000, we must differentiate food safety and quality issues.

Good individual judgement must prevail.

Regards
Charles Chew


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Cheers,
Charles Chew
www.naturalmajor.com

#39 Rudra

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:54 PM

Hi,

i have done many management reviews. I wish to have more ideas of how to present this meeting. Does anyone has an example of presentation of management review meeting to send me.

 

Rgds

Rudra


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#40 hila_rozen

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 03:32 PM

Dear all,

 

What do I need to dispaly in the following  clause : "Analysis of results of verification activities".

I didn't find in this conversation any answer for it.

 

Ask for help.

Thanks in advance

Hila

 


 


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