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Is Metal Detection a PRP or CCP?


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#26 Charles.C

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 08:14 AM

Dear Kara,

It’s brave of you to give an example concerning oPRP. Unfortunately, I’m afraid I don’t understand it. :rolleyes:
It seems to me that the aspect of hand hygiene is a simple example of a fundamental PRP just as in a typical current HACCP analysis plan for an RTE item. (many years ago the typical plan had “Sanitation CCP’s” in many steps but all these were moved into the group of “Pre-requisites”).

I sincerely hope that the concept of ISO22000 to decide to specify a step as an oPRP has a stronger conceptual meaning than related to the lack of a specific number for a critical limit. For myself, I had vaguely believed that the additional prefix "O" (= Operational?) indicated something more exact regarding the actual process line but I am totally willing to be persuaded otherwise.

I am not criticising yr effort at all (the exact opposite in fact :clap: ), just demonstrating my sad level of lack of understanding the ISO intention for using the category of oPRP. It is equally unfortunate IMO that the ISO22000 published documentation also gives no clear practical examples to explain these (I presume) important differences in meaning. The original ISO discussions prior to the issuing of the standard suggest that this feature was highly disagreed between the representative countries and the result, again IMO, is a total mess.

I suppose it’s a financial bonus for the auditor business however. :biggrin:

(All this is somewhat away from original post, sorry Pedro, but at least we're in the right forum :whistle: )

Rgds / Charles.C


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Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


#27 downtown

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 11:24 AM

Dear Charles,
Following requirements of ISO 22000 imply that OPRPs are equivalent to CCPs in terms of monitoring, corrective actions, verification and recordkeeping

ISO 22000 requirements :
7.5 c) monitoring procedures that OPRPs are implemented.
7.5 d) corrections and corrective actions
7.5 f) records of monitoring
7.6.4 System for monitoring of critical control points
7.7 updating of preliminary information and documents specifying the PRPs and HACCP plan - (THIS IS I THINK a TYPHOGRAPHY ERROR, BECAUSE, PARAGRAPH BELOW (7.5) IS TALKIN ABOUT OPRPs NOT PRPS)
in 7.8 Verification planning a) PRPs are considered sepately however,
7.8 c)OPRPs and HACCP plan(CCPs) are considered together.

Most certain one is
7.10.1 the organisation shall ensure that when critical limits of CCPs are exceeded
OR there is a loss of control of OPRPs, the products affected are identified and controlled...
7.10.1 clearly show us the main difference is "critical limits" I think :)

7.10.2 Data derived from the monitoring OPRPs and CCPs shall be evaluated by designated persons with ....
This is not a certain requirement for ordinary PRPs.

Requirement 7.10.2 suprisingly relates only to OPRPs and CCPs but not to ordinary PRPs.


Corrective actions related to PRPs is required if any problem is found during internal audits or verification.(in Req. 8.4.1/last paragraph, 8.4.2c)

An other thing is the difference between PRPs and OPRPs :
Yes, OPRPs are also PRPs BUT...
They are specific PRPs equivalent to CCPs in terms of monitoring, verification, correction, corrective actions and recordkeeping.
Ordinary PRPs are not a matter of monitoring or corrections, they are only subjected to Verification by 7.8a).


Should we discuss this in a separate topic what do you think?

Kind regards.

Kara


Edited by downtown, 21 November 2007 - 11:50 AM.

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#28 Witch

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 05:40 PM

Dear Charles C. and Kara,
(sorry that I did not answer earlier... too much work!)
@Charles: I have some difficulties like you in distinguishing PRP and oPRP for I do not find clear differences. I started to declare all of the processes (something moves; "operational" :oops:
) to be oPRP and everything that is defined (for example "how to wash your hands correctly") to be a PRP. But @Kara: the definition with limits is charming...
Can we get some more certified examples? What was accepted to be a PRP or an oPRP?
Maybe that would help us?!

sending greetings from stormy germany
Andrea


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#29 downtown

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 10:15 PM

Dear Andrea,

Thanks for the comment. I am as an assessor, can tell you that a few of the implementations will give you a clue about these matters. Because most of them are already registered against HACCP, BRC or IFS, such companies don't mind the new terminology and think that it is enoguh to revise the Food Safety Manual to make it parallel to requirements of new ISO 22000 standard and describing addtional requirements of the standard in this manual.

I can tell you that I have performed more than 30 ISO 22000 audits. Only a few of them were certain about OPRPs :(

Many of them haven't prepared any new OPRP plan. They have chosen to continue with HACCP plan and PRP plan. The rest have done this but believe me again a few of OPRP plan are comprehensive and solid enough. Those plans show only the fact they didn't understand the OPRP concept mostly. :(

I hope sunny days for all of us. But weather is really bad also in Antalya.
Kind regards.
Kara


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