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#26 Simon

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 03:30 PM

FSMS is not just about severity, likelihood or risk - its about risk management as well which means "zero tolerance". Comments appreciated.

Anyone care to respond to Charles?


There is a new guideline under Codex Alimentarius on this issue which is becoming a big issue now. Mycotoxins such as Fusarium, T-2, Ochratoxins etc are being looked into with seriously and it would become a bigger in tme to come.

Regards
Charles Chew

Can you post a link in another thread please Charles?

BTW Happy New Year!

Simon
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#27 Charles Chew

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 04:16 PM

Hi Simon,

A Happy New Year to you.

Information on Mycotoxins can be obtained from the Codex Alimentarius Official Web Site. However, the EU has its own Mycotoxins Regulatory and Consultative Limits which you can get from the Food Standard Agency.

Regards
Charles Chew


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#28 Charles Chew

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 06:19 AM

Hello,

I just want to further add that in determining the risk assessment of any potential hazards, the qualitative and quantitative nature of the potential adverse health impact contributing to foods or for further food processes should be duly managed.

There is a very clear need to do so as all three classes of generally known potential hazards have differing impacting results under differing circumstances and level of tolerances.

Regards
Charles Chew


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#29 Charles.C

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 08:22 PM

Dear All,

Unfotunately seems that 5/6 of upload links are broken. Weblinks seem ok.


I hv repeated the lost links below in same order as in thread (hopefully). Some file names are changed slightly :smile:

If any more broken links found this thread, pls inform

1. Attached File  Risk_Matrix_steve_gasket_saferpak_.xls   18KB   122 downloads

2. Attached File  risk_matrix_chc.doc   480.5KB   114 downloads

3. Attached File  haccp_matrix_cazx_risk_analysis.xls   17KB   101 downloads

4. Attached File  haccp_animal_feed_manual.pdf   1.59MB   57 downloads

5. Attached File  fh03_08e.pdf   270.03KB   101 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

added 10022008 - Nos 1 - 5 above hv also been replaced into the original posts.


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#30 Simon

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 08:22 PM

:off_topic:

added 10022008 - Nos 1 - 5 above hv also been replaced into the original posts.

I was just about to do it. As you said in the other thread the missing files is becoming a worry. I think the way you have handled it is the only way. Thank you so much Charles.

Regards,
Simon
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#31 oscar83

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 08:49 AM

Hi everyone, im new here. Im currently doing a project and my task is to design a handout to illustrate the main types of hazards in the catering industry. May i know how to classify these hazards and assess the risk of such hazard. Which are the main types of hazard that should be really be assign on? it would be great if theres a sample to view on.

Greatly appreciated for the help here.


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#32 Jean

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 08:36 AM

Hi Oscar,

I would recommend you to read Dr. Peter Synders site for catering HACCP.

www.hi-tm.com

Hope this will help you.



Thanks,

J


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#33 rita

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:49 PM

A very interesting thread and valuable info I have got fom this thread. I would like to ask what is the advantage of having a matrix compared to decision tree or risk assessment done using likelihood and severity.

Have any of you got different conclusions by using the above methods??

I would like to know from where the matrix is developed and whether these are specific for the various industries.


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#34 Simon

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:08 AM

A very interesting thread and valuable info I have got fom this thread. I would like to ask what is the advantage of having a matrix compared to decision tree or risk assessment done using likelihood and severity.

Have any of you got different conclusions by using the above methods??

I would like to know from where the matrix is developed and whether these are specific for the various industries.

Can anybody help Rita with her query?

Simon
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#35 GMO

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 09:22 AM

I only came across the matrix recently. Codex recommends using their decision tree. The thing which confuses me about the likelihood / severity thing is should you do it before prerequisite controls are in place, before CCP controls are in place, after all controls or all three? I suppose if you do a "before" and "after", it might tell you whether you have controlled the hazard, however the severity will never be reduced, only the likelihood.

Personally I use the decision tree but discuss it as a team, otherwise you can end up with a ridiculous number of CCPs. What I always think if the decision tree comes out with a 'yes' for a CCP is "is the action which controls this specific, well located and measurable? Would it be controlled better as a prerequisite?" A hot topic for example is cleaning. Some people would identify this as a CCP. I think it's a prerequisite because it happens in lots of places in a plant, it can easily be bypassed whatever controls are put in place, it's difficult to monitor (ok there is ATP swabbing but it's not very accurate and depends greatly where you swab, there's chemical concentration and temperature testing but that's a waste of time if the method is wrong). However, a decision tree will call that a CCP if you ask the questions in a certain way.


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#36 GMO

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 10:09 AM

Found this online.

http://www.food.gov....cpriskasses.pdf

Obviously really they say it stems from Health and Safety but an interesting point they've said is that it can help you prioritise where you need spend to improve your food safety.


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#37 Charles Chew

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 01:04 PM

C. Tree is some what inadequate these days. Have a look at FMEA risk assessment - its in the article.


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#38 GMO

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 05:17 PM

I agree but I also think we can get bogged down in systems when a bit of common sense would do wonders!


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#39 Charles Chew

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 06:38 AM

Certainly, its all about common sense and logic within the context and range of of scientific facts; scientific testings; etc etc.......... What and how else can it be when your process controls are not in a position to eliminate or prevent but albeit to reduce the potential risks to an acceptable level.


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#40 Jean

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 09:25 AM

Dear All,



Thanks GMO for the link on HACCP & Risk Assessment. Mr. Philip Comer’s presentation on the risk matrix was value added and interesting.

I agree with you & Charles Chew that a lot of common sense and logic has to be put in to devise controls to prevent or eliminate the risks to an acceptable level, also would like to add experience & practice are required too in conducting RA.



I was quite impressed with the food matrix by Mr. Philip as it quantifies the risks to a greater extent and hence there are fewer chances for RA to be subjective with the factors stated when deciding on the consequences….like with respect to people, reputation and societal cost.



Regards,



J


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#41 Charles.C

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 12:01 PM

Dear All,

Ahem, to revert to the original question from Rita comparing risk matrix to decision tree, I personally have always preferred the matrix approach since it seemed more direct / explicit although the practical implementation is obviously highly subjective. The Dtree offers a more “spelled-out” procedure perhaps although there is still an implicit requirement for a (similarly subjective) risk analysis (explicit in ISO 22000) within the evaluation. It also promotes the use of shortcuts to CCPs for certain situations which has caused some previous debate in this forum, eg metal detectors. The resultant patterns of Y/N answers are maybe more auditor-friendly although their production can still require significant head scratching IMEX. Sadly, AFAIK, there are very few detailed practical presentations on the IT for either method although I suppose this maintains the tolerable subjectivity. Have never seen a published pro/con comparison of the two methodologies ?? Anybody ??

To my understanding, HACCP is a kind of “reduced” form of FMEA with 2 main variables instead of 3. Frankly, I find 2 parameters enough of a handful already although I am willing to be convinced by a practical comparison ?? Anybody ??

Rgds / Charles.C


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#42 Jean

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 07:30 AM

Referring and reverting to Rita’s question,



I would like to ask what is the advantage of having a matrix compared to decision tree or risk assessment done using likelihood and severity.

Have any of you got different conclusions by using the above methods??

I would like to know from where the matrix is developed and whether these are specific for the various industries.





Decision tree is more of a qualitative technique for risk assessment whereas matrix is quantitative. DTree is a supportive tool that uses a set of questions or decisions for arriving at the probable consequence or outcome. Matrix is also a decision support tool which also arrives at the outcome by evaluating / rating and comparing with different alternatives or criteria.



I reviewed hazard analysis few months back with a matrix and arrived at the same CCPs.



If I am not wrong, the hazard risk assessment matrix was derived from MIL-STD-882B (System Safety Program Requirements)





Regards,



J
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#43 Charles.C

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 09:54 AM

Dear Jean,

If I am not wrong, the hazard risk assessment matrix was derived from MIL-STD-882B (System Safety Program Requirements)



Many thanks for this useful pointer. After a quick IT look, officially you seem to be incorrect but unofficially maybe ??

HACCP itself dates back to the late 1960’s ("officially" Pilsbury 1973 ?), not sure when first matrix appeared though I think quite early.

FMEA was apparently formally launched in the 1940’s (Wiki) but hv no idea when it first used matrices.

MILSTD 882B was officially issued in 1984 and was apparently the first in the series to show a matrix ( http://www.dtic.mil/.../mcallister.pdf. ) though the series itself goes back to the 1960’s so unofficially ??

Rgds / Charles.C
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#44 Jean

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 12:44 PM

Thanks Charles for the clarification. :rolleyes:

Regards,

Jean


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#45 rita

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 07:19 PM

THANKS A LOT FOR THE INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCES SHARED.


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#46 Jean

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 05:26 PM

While it is imperative to fully understand the pathogenic impact of each species of micro-organism, it is also equally important to understand the level of infective dose of each species that could cause harm to adverse health impact. A moderate pathogenic hazard that has limited spread such as "bacillus cereus" is just as potent as a severely hazardous species.

FSMS is not just about severity, likelihood or risk - its about risk management as well which means "zero tolerance". Comments appreciated.


Dear Charles Chew,

Sorry, for a very late reply as I didn’t notice your post.

Thank you for a feedback.

I agree with you the infective dose of each species should be known while doing the risk assessment. In fact FSMS should be zero tolerance. Moreover the infective dose may vary, depending on various factors like the host, immunity, geographical location, occupation etc.... For example, the infective dose for Salmonella is around 15-20 cells in high risk population, whereas it may be a million (approx.) to cause illness in a healthy person. Just a thought regarding the estimation of the infective dose which are arrived upon from any epidemiological studies or by tests done on any healthy volunteers, the values may not be appropriate for estimating the risks. Therefore any potential hazard should have suitable control measures devised to manage the risk of a health hazard.
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#47 Jean

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:04 AM

I have found a useful link on Risk assessment and thought this would be useful.

http://www.ccohs.ca/...assessment.html


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#48 charu13

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 05:50 AM

This is the matrix i use

My front page has all of the relevant legislation on it.

Word of advise, we have a supporting document to our HACCP plan, which this is in, but during my BRC audit, it was recommended that i put this into the actual plan.

New link added 10022008 to replace broken original / Charles.C -

attachicon.gifhaccp_ma...analysis.xls

( also available as No3 in Ch.C post in this thread ca 09022008 )

HI,

I used this matrix into my haccp manual based on the standard codex and it worked really very well.Can you please share the reference document for this matrix.I mean the source from which it is prepared.

 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Charu


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#49 zein1

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Posted 13 November 2014 - 12:56 PM

Dear Sirs,

On my opinion to deicide for CCP it would depend pretty much on the previous history linked to probability (occurrence).  So of probability is low -- then most probably would result in an OPRP.


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