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Charles Chew

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 10:36 AM

Whats Halal or Kosher when both systems are supported by religious laws BUT not quite supported by requirements of the Food Safety requirements of ISO 22K or for that matter Codex HACCP.

In the world of emerging ingredients, packaging options and process controls - do the religious requirements possibly fit into our modern production techniques i.e. using technologies like "irradiation thorugh gamma-ray, microwave or RF etc" (are these Halal or Kosher Certificable Foods) or even traditional approach using the trusted temperature / time control or is Halal or Kosher is a religious guide and nothing to do with food safety issues.

If they are, then, both Halal and Kosher should really have the requirements of ISO 22000 integrated into their current requirements. If not, when Draft BS EN ISO 22000 becomes a European Food Law - Do Halal or Kasher Products meet the importing requirements of EU?

I am drawn into this ambiguity and hope someone can enlighten me on this subject.

Charles Chew


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Posted 25 April 2006 - 12:09 PM

I am drawn into this ambiguity and hope someone can enlighten me on this subject.


Allow me to draw you further in Charles. :lol2:

I haven't a clue what the requirements are for a food to be certified as Kosher or Halal; I know Halal and Kosher certification exists, but is the approval process to an agreed global standard? If it is can anyone provide an overview of the requirements? Do they include food safety issues?

In the UK the law of the land prevails over religious law so for example a Halal meat producer in the UK or importing into the UK would still have to comply with the Food Safety Act 1990 and would be required to have a HACCP system in place.

Maybe in Muslim/Jewish cultures Halal is all the warranty that is needed, but somehow I doubt that. I would expect they have exactly the same food safety systems as found everywhere else, but just with some extra customer/market specific requirements on top.

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Charles Chew

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 03:03 PM

but is the approval process to an agreed global standard?

NO global standard just yet but Malaysia is currently attempting to propose that intention under MS 1500:2004 which is a local standard for Halal. (Have a look at the Codex Guideline for Halal)

Do they include food safety issues?


Food safety is always a concern whether it is Kosher or Halal but these "standards" are not based on a risk assessment approach...

In the UK the law of the land prevails over religious law


You got it mate! This is exactly what I was screaming about. The law of the land holds the judicial key to regulatory requirements and not forgetting complying to customers' needs (which seems okay in this case). Therefore, if BS EN ISO 22K is up and running, the onus is on the exporter to proof that a FSMS ISo 22K is in place :beer:

I think the Muslim and the Jewish brothers need to be reminded that the law of the land is still the KING....no matter what :thumbup:

Cheers
Charles

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Edited by charleschew, 25 April 2006 - 03:05 PM.

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:16 AM

Thanks for posting the Halal guidelines Charles; I guess these are the Malaysian ones you mentioned.

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Simon


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Posted 26 April 2006 - 09:49 AM

Thanks for posting the Halal guidelines Charles; I guess these are the Malaysian ones you mentioned.


No Simon - the attachment is sourced from Codex Web Site. MS 1500:2004 is a Malaysian Stand Alone Halal Standard and I am not able to post it because its copyrighted. Its based on a risk-assessment approach using a HACCP Plan......in short its some thing like "HACCP HALAL" but it has not quite caught up yet.

Nevertheless, it would still fall short of the requirements under ISO 22000. ........i.e. apart from meeting religious requirements, you would need to look at regulatory and customers- right :beer:

As in all types of food industries, backyard operators are inevitable and this can only mean that whether it is Kosher or Halal - I am not going to have any of it UNLESS it has a HACCP or ISO 22K Certification logo on the packaging that suggest are made out of a proper certificated food establishment.

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 11:41 AM

Nevertheless, it would still fall short of the requirements under ISO 22000. ........i.e. apart from meeting religious requirements, you would need to look at regulatory and customers- right :beer:



Right. :beer:

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:42 PM

Looks like there is no interest on Halal or Kosher on the potential of using a quality management system to manage a religion-based food processing program or are these "standards" no longer able to keep ahead of global demand for a harmonized approach to a systematic and auditable FSMS Program.

Would like to hear from the relevant parties on how ISO 22000 can fit in or vice-versa.


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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:43 PM

Looks like there is no interest on Halal or Kosher on the potential of using a quality management system to manage a religion-based food processing program or are these "standards" no longer able to keep ahead of global demand for a harmonized approach to a systematic and auditable FSMS Program.

Would like to hear from the relevant parties on how ISO 22000 can fit in or vice-versa.



Hello Charles and Simon

I would like to give you my point of view about this issue after being working in Halal premises in England.
" Halal" has to do with a " animal welfare " concern more than a " food hygiene" one. The key for halal meat is the way the animal has been killed ( no stunning ). Apart from that, the remaining process of the industry has to be carried out complying hygienic standars.
Imagine this scenario: a halal slauterhouse run by "not muslin people " in which all the employees are muslim people. That premise has to comply with the regulations which already contemplate " no stunning for halal slautrehouses"

Regards
Esther


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Posted 04 May 2006 - 12:21 AM

Hi Esther

Recently, Australia had suffered the humiliation of having to comply with changes in the Muslim Islamic Syariah Laws on stunning / slauthering of cattles just because some Muslim Religious Leaders made a comment that it is not in line with the interpretation of the Quran......mind you, the previous approach to stunning of cattles before slauther had been practised for decades.

Therefore, is Halal based on religious views of a few interested parties or would the standard under MS1500:2004 be the way to go.

Ambiguity, discrepancies and the lack of a global approach to Halal is indeed a major "roadblock"


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Posted 05 May 2006 - 01:41 AM

Dear Esther and Charles,

The key for halal meat is the way the animal has been killed ( no stunning ). Apart from that, the remaining process of the industry has to be carried out complying hygienic standars.


Is this true? I have seen a Halal abbotoir, and they do stun the chickens before slaughter...

My understanding that it's the killing step, one swift step (only one) to sever the arteries and veins, the esophagus, the tracea...to hasten the blood drain so that the animals do not suffer. And that the animals must be alive during slaughtering. Don't think stunning has anything to do with it.

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 07:15 AM

Dear Esther and Charles,
Is this true? I have seen a Halal abbotoir, and they do stun the chickens before slaughter...

My understanding that it's the killing step, one swift step (only one) to sever the arteries and veins, the esophagus, the tracea...to hasten the blood drain so that the animals do not suffer. And that the animals must be alive during slaughtering. Don't think stunning has anything to do with it.


Is the reason given why stunning is not allowed because the blood does not let as well? Anyway in the UK I believe no stunning is carried out in Halal meat production.


Simon

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Charles Chew

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 04:44 AM

Is the reason given why stunning is not allowed because the blood does not let as well? Anyway in the UK I believe no stunning is carried out in Halal meat production.


Animal Welfare is A major concern....stunning helps to reduce pains and sufferings encountered by animals during this entire slauthering process which is why Australia (including many other countries) has been practising this approach.....AND was an accepted way of slauthering animals until someone from Malaysia decided to TEST the MS1500:2004 through some "ignorant religious individuals"

Anyway, from a highly reliable source, when the same team went to Argentina to inspect their abbatoirs with regards to HALAL compliant, they were demonstrated the way slauthering should be done the halal way i.e. NO STUNNING :thumbup:

After they left the abbatoirs, stunnings were continued and ironically, they got their Halal approval status.

The real issue here is ALL the rest of the world uses the stunning method i.e. if you want to supply to McDonalds, Burger King etc which is contrary to Halal requirements.

The irony is the Middle East being the centre of all that is Islamic continues to buy stunned beef etc from Australia (except for a few smallish Muslim Countries)

Animal Welfare Rules!

Edited by charleschew, 06 May 2006 - 04:46 AM.

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 07:29 AM

Hmmm.....

I always thought that Halal also emphasize on "humane" slaughtering...

Points for me to ponder...

Thanks for the input, Simon and Charles.

Cheers,


Edited by just me, 06 May 2006 - 07:32 AM.


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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:17 AM

As a matter of interest, stunning may be likened to a form of "non-alcoholic intoxication" of the animal's state of mind (which is very Halal) but the main issue here is the islamic syariah law's method of a swift single kill with the animal still being alive is also achieved.

Nevertheless, IMO, if Halal is to achieve world recognition beyond the islamic boundaries, it must modernize its approach afterall, was there electricity for stunning purposes during the Prophet Mohammed days or the ban on stunning using electricity clearly written in the Quran :dunno:

If anyone of you have not tried Halal Foods, I urge try it. Personally, I have no issues.......its foods anyway you take it.


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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:50 PM

Dear Esther and Charles,
Is this true? I have seen a Halal abbotoir, and they do stun the chickens before slaughter...

My understanding that it's the killing step, one swift step (only one) to sever the arteries and veins, the esophagus, the tracea...to hasten the blood drain so that the animals do not suffer. And that the animals must be alive during slaughtering. Don't think stunning has anything to do with it.

Cheers.



Hello justme, Charles and Simon

Just one thing.

Without stunning, the animal is suffering for a while till the bleeding is complete.
An animal is not dead till the bleeding is complete.

Charles, what is MS1500:2004 about ?


Regards
ESther


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Posted 09 May 2006 - 04:47 AM

I have just checked with some people in the industry.

Seems that in Malaysia, stunning is ok for a Halal abattoir. But there is a certain voltage limit to follow, and the birds must NOT be stunned to death.
Most halal abattoirs (for poultry) in Malaysia uses stunning prior to slaughtering.

I think the problem is different "officials" are giving their own interpretation and requirements on Halal... not so different from different interpretations on food safety standards by different auditors.... :mellow:

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 07:49 AM

Just found this news: Malaysian Ban On Australian Beef Lifted

http://www.halaljour...ticle_619.shtml

From what it says in the article, stunning is ok for Halal, it is just the discrepancy on the stunning methods.

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:26 AM

Charles, what is MS1500:2004 about ?


Hi Esther,

Think I did explain earlier but here goes again.....it is apparently claimed to be an auditable Halal Standard (against the MS 1500:2004) although it has yet to find significant acceptance by other Halal Practitioners.

Often the usual approach is to rely on a team of trained inspectorates with islamic law backgrounds who inspect the facility for compliant. So unless you are an islamic scholars well versed in this religion, you are as "Just Me" described "interpretations could well be a matter of individual's state of mind.

As I have said, does a facility certified to a Halal-HACCP based standard meets EU Import requirements when ISO 22000 becomes the land law?

I do not think so but on the other hand, a facility certified to an integrated Halal-ISO 22000 based program is exportable to any countries around the world :thumbup:

Esther - I hope this helps

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:38 AM

From what it says in the article, stunning is ok for Halal


Hi Wai Ling,

Its true that the ban on Australian had since lifted but not after the entire food service industry felt the impact of BSE-Free beef for either direct consumption or further processing.

Australian Calfs are fed on grass while the US and EU are fed on grains and Aussie Beef is reasonably cheap AND its BSE-Free.

So.....economics of the market actually forced the Govt. to review the ban forcing it to be lifted. While I agree with the stunning voltages rules with regards to Halal requirement (when stunning was still accepted then)...the size of the animals matter.

A larger animal would require a much higher voltage to drop the cattle while with a smaller animal, the same voltage would have killed it instantly.

* I am not an expert on this but I am sure someone out there reading this is an expert may like to expand on this subject.

Anyway, I see the Malaysian-Australian issue rather a political drama more than anything else. IMO, it was an attempt to enforce a statement.

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 03:04 AM

Anyway, I see the Malaysian-Australian issue rather a political drama more than anything else. IMO, it was an attempt to enforce a statement.


Hehehe, true, true. I totally agree. :doh:

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 07:12 AM

Hi

we do not use any origin animal products, our factory is approved by the vegetarian and vegan societies.
we had an enquiery if our products are hallal?
what do you think? :tired:

bibi



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Posted 11 May 2006 - 02:23 AM

we do not use any origin animal products, our factory is approved by the vegetarian and vegan societies.
we had an enquiery if our products are hallal?
what do you think? :tired:

Dear Bibi,

This happens very often, to the Muslims, your product will not be Halal unless it has a Halal logo. End of story.
What need to be done is that if you are looking into the Muslim market, may just need to apply for the Halal logo.
I do see people putting a line on the label "This product does not contain anything of animal origin". But still we can't claim Halal.

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 12:43 PM

Hello Bibi,

Might be a good idea to check things out with your country's approach to this.......remember! its not based on a standard but rather interpretation of the al-quran and al-hadith.

IT also goes beyond animal origin issues i.e. gotta to be pork-free, free from intoxicating substances (you have to proof that your vege and vegan products do not intoxicate - it should not anyway :whistle: and blah! blah! blah!

Quick Checklist - Form a Halal Team (got a Iraqi or Iranian or Muslim Worker :thumbup: - it would help); establish your Halal Ingredients List, can hold of an expert interpreter of the Islamic Law for guidance, set your procedures and controls (HACCP Style) to control najis (things are that unsafe).......and you are on the way.

Think its a good idea if you can post your implementation on the forum for all to help you out on this one. We do have a lot of Muslim Members here you know.


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Posted 11 May 2006 - 06:04 PM

Hello Bibi,

Might be a good idea to check things out with your country's approach to this.......remember! its not based on a standard but rather interpretation of the al-quran and al-hadith.

IT also goes beyond animal origin issues i.e. gotta to be pork-free, free from intoxicating substances (you have to proof that your vege and vegan products do not intoxicate - it should not anyway :whistle: and blah! blah! blah!

Quick Checklist - Form a Halal Team (got a Iraqi or Iranian or Muslim Worker :thumbup: - it would help); establish your Halal Ingredients List, can hold of an expert interpreter of the Islamic Law for guidance, set your procedures and controls (HACCP Style) to control najis (things are that unsafe).......and you are on the way.

Think its a good idea if you can post your implementation on the forum for all to help you out on this one. We do have a lot of Muslim Members here you know.

:thumbup: \\\\\\hi just me and Charles

Don't worry I am muslim and thank you for your replies quite impressed.
I just want to know more what others think and suggested, I will think about it.

bibi





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