21 replies to this topic

[Charles Chew]

Companies that already have ISO 9001 will find it easy to extend this certification to ISO 22000

Its not quite true and misleading to even suggest that with an existing ISO 9K system in place, implementation of ISO 22K would be easier but I would agree that if people are conditoned to using standards / systems within their own workplace, it would certainly be easier to embrace a new one.

If so, we might as well have ISO 15161 integrated into ISO 9001 and we have ISO 22000 - its really not quite so but it certainly helps to know a bit of both.

[Witch]

Its not quite true and misleading to even suggest that with an existing ISO 9K system in place, implementation of ISO 22K would be easier

You are absolutely right!
I audited a kitchen yesterday - having 9K and 14K since several years.
Unfortunately their HACCP was thus wrong, they fell trough...

I think HACCP is heart and this is still fastidious (is it the right word?)


Ciao Andrea

[Charles Chew]

Hi Andrea
I think you wanted to say "HACCP is still fantastic"

As you have mentioned, the company you audited recently had already been certified to ISO 9K and 14K for a while and yet, failed to address the needs of a Food Safety System.

This somewhat reminds me of a similar siutation where IMO IRCA is currently making a big MISTAKE in its food auditor conversion courses. Its all very well that we encourage QMS Auditors with Food Technology and Microbiology background but to suggest that no food experience prequisite is required for example an Engineer who have absolutely no food background at all to pursue such as conversion is definitely in the wrong direction.

So there is absolutely no difference between your situation and this one - when a Company already certificated to ISO 9K and 14K should feel that implementing a HACCP System is but a piece of cake

Do you think a QMS Auditor with Engineering Bckground with absolutely no food safety background should feel the same way?

Sorry Simon - I know I have diverted the topic but just could not resist taking a shot at IRCA.

[jamesgibb]

As you have mentioned, the company you audited recently had already been certified to ISO 9K and 14K for a while and yet, failed to address the needs of a Food Safety System.

Charles,

A more important question:

"how can a company who fail to address the needs of food safety meet the requirements of ISO9001:2000?"

surely this is a key customer requirement and the idea of ISO9001 is that you meet and exceed your customer requirements

This is what annoys me about the current status of ISO9001 and organisations like the IRCA are fuelling the problem by "qualifying" auditors.

do you think a QMS auditor with an engineering background should audit a food company at all?

I know in Global one of our Directors who is also an auditor with over 20 years QMS experience is not allowed to audit food clients to QMS, yet other CB's seem to be happy to allow someone with a degree in Business Management to audit a "low risk" restaurant.

Anyone else want to join the Rant

I think I can feel another Poll coming - check in 1/2 an hour

James

P.S. HACCP may be Fantastic but 22 is Brilliant too!

[Charles Chew]

James,
The reason why I am reading this at 1.15 am is because I am waiting for the Arsenal vs Juve game and yes! I agree with you that a company who fails to address the needs of food safety should have their certification suspended immediately because their product would likely to pose a great threat to public health.....afterall, a food safety program is measured to zero tolerance.

To a chap who knows what clostridium botulinum is, you would not want to have that stuff in your canned sardines when you know is going to send you straight to the hospital. Well, to the QMS Auditor with engineering background, he may just like to think that its okay to have some of it in your food since bacteria can be found practically every where anyway. That new definition for commercial sterility may well find its way into the Oxford Dictionery soon if IRCA does not watch it.

Some consultancy companies are pushing ISO 22000 like pushing drugs and I know a few of such companies where I come from.

As a FSMS Consultant I am having a whale of a time with ISO 22K implementation and my last external audit for ISO 22K under the UKAS Pilot Scheme was performed by a registered food lead auditor with 30 years experience.................and I would not have it any otherway.

I am also peed off to hear that the official certification under the UKS Scheme is delayed again because some of the BIG CB BOYS are still not able to close-out their witness audit NCRs. Maybe, I should have their names listed on this forum I hope my client can get their certificate soon because I have three other companies on the queue earmarked for audit by Sept.

IRCA has really screwed up on this one!

Edited by charleschew, 05 April 2006 - 05:43 PM.

[jamesgibb]

James,

Some consultancy companies are pushing ISO 22000 like pushing drugs and I know a few of such companies where I come from.

As a FSMS Consultant I am having a whale of a time with ISO 22K implementation and my last external audit for ISO 22K under the UKAS Pilot Scheme was performed by a registered food lead auditor with 30 years experience.................and I would not have it any otherway.

I am also peed off to hear that the official certification under the UKS Scheme is delayed again because some of the BIG CB BOYS are still not able to close-out their witness audit NCRs. Maybe, I should have their names listed on this forum I hope my client can get their certificate soon because I have three other companies on the queue earmarked for audit by Sept.

IRCA has really screwed up on this one!

Charles,


our accreditation has stalled due to client issues, we're applying for Hotels and resturants as our scope of accreditation initially, I'd love to help you out of your quandry by offering us as an alternative. I should be in KL from the 22nd so if you want to discuss any possibilities send me a PM

Well that's the shameless marketing bit out of the way, did you enjoy the match?

James

[Charles Chew]

I should be in KL from the 22nd

James,
It would be my pleasure to buy you dinner when you are in town however I am likely to be in Penang during this period. If you are catching a short holiday before going home, Penang would be a nice place and it would be good to catch up with you there. Lets see how it goes. I can be contacted at my personal email or via this forum.

For now, I am unable to out-source another Auditor that is technically better than the one I am currently using and the clients are extremely happy with him so its difficult for us to change a winning formula.....and the client certainly cannot afford the cost of a food auditor coming all the way from UK.

As a matter of fact, I used to to have the option of using two food auditors until one of them had to go back to her country of origin. Its not easy to find a good IRCA registered food auditor in my country - far too many QMS Converted Auditors around

The game was good. I would like to think that a Barcelona vs Arsenal final is on the card.

Charles

[Witch]

Do you think a QMS Auditor with Engineering Bckground with absolutely no food safety background should feel the same way?

Charles,
I think he never should do this. Our audit was in switzerland and the accreditation body had the same opinion! The lead auditor was rejected because he had only (but years of) 9001 experience!
I think we do need more time, maybe decades until everyone understands it. But it grows!
Would you discuss some topics in the foodsafetycenter? Should be a way in this direction!
European Foodsafetycenter

Have a nice day!
Andrea

[Charles Chew]

Hello Witch,

What a name but I love it. Call me "Devil Charles" and I love to throw some *#*#*%)% on those "engineer food auditors" and IRCA and CBs for allowing these sort of things to happen at the expense of ignorant auditees.

Not that I had allowed an engineer to audit my client but I want to make sure that it does not happen to others. I have always and hope that members of this forum would insist on the CVs of Food AUditors before engaging them. This nonsense is not going to stop until WE STOP IT ourselves.

Cheers Witch

Devil Charles

[Charles Chew]

Would you discuss some topics in the foodsafetycenter? Should be a way in this direction!

Hi Andrea,

Thank you for the invitation. I have bookmarked the web page. Will take a look later and I have no issues with getting invovled with any food safety discussions.

Regards
Charles Chew

[APPAJI]

Dear Charles,
I also am in fit when I hear that an auditor with no Food Qualification and experiance turns up for HACCP Audit There are few CB who for there requirements are taking up Graduates from Food back ground and with only littele experiance in industry and no or littel awareness on HACCP and sending for audits. Problum to us and Clients. IS ISO22000 is published, awareness on HACCP is growing , but implications are rarely understood.
Appaji

[Simon]

Dear Charles,
I also am in fit when I hear that an auditor with no Food Qualification and experiance turns up for HACCP Audit There are few CB who for there requirements are taking up Graduates from Food back ground and with only littele experiance in industry and no or littel awareness on HACCP and sending for audits. Problum to us and Clients. IS ISO22000 is published, awareness on HACCP is growing , but implications are rarely understood.
Appaji

There seems to be a shortage of qualified/experienced food safety auditors at the moment. As demand outstrips supply food safety auditors should be able to command good fees for the forseable future. Maybe some consultants should switch.

Simon

[Esther]

There seems to be a shortage of qualified/experienced food safety auditors at the moment. As demand outstrips supply food safety auditors should be able to command good fees for the forseable future. Maybe some consultants should switch.

Simon

Hello Charles, Simon and others

At last I heard a sensible reply regarding this matter. This brings me months back when I expressed my opinion on this matter in some spanish forums and talking to people working in quality departments and even in this forum time ago.

I am with you: NOONE with " no food background " should carry out an food related standard audit.

So could anyone tell me the difference between QMS auditor and FSMS auditor currently?

If you want to become an IRCA registered food auditor, what would you do? More over, does a IRCA food auditor course exist ? Should we wait to the release of ISO 22003? What the CBs are allowed to do on this regard, I mean, they can hire a QMS auditor and a food expert person to do one audit?

I will carry on with this question wherever and whenever I have the change because so far I had no answer to an apparently easy question.

I really appreciate any answer

Regards
ESther

[Charles Chew]

Hello Esther

What I know is some major CBs are using the services of "external food auditors" to endorse official audit documents but audit work performed by QMS Auditors instead so this sort of "proxy" approach is currently happening in some places as a measure to dealing with the shortage of food auditor........do you think this is professionally right?

On the issue of Food Auditor COnversion COurse - you may check their Web Sites for approved courses.

We are currently hoping to work with a European Group to provide "decent professional" conversion courses instead of the ones that are currently held in Asia by in mind way, an irresponsible organization.

[just me]

There seems to be a shortage of qualified/experienced food safety auditors at the moment. As demand outstrips supply food safety auditors should be able to command good fees for the forseable future. Maybe some consultants should switch.

Dear Simon,

I apologize for taking a shot on IRCA, but the thing is, IMO, IRCA is quite rigid in approving FSMS auditors. They do not recognize audits based on other food safety standards such as the RvA standard, Danish standard, MS standard or even Codex. So the food safety people/auditors, even with years of experience in food safety system, were not able to comply with the 20 audit days requirements to be a certificated FSMS auditor. Hence the lacking in FS auditors.
Instead, QMS auditors are allowed to be converted to FSMS auditos.

Sure, most FS people may not have comparable experience in management systems as the QMS or EMS auditors, but it would be much more easier for a food safety person to pick up the management issues, than for a QMS person to pick up food safety hazards and HACCP.

If we read the Rva, Danish, MS standards or Codex guideline, these standards do address on management responsibilities, maybe not as indepth as ISO standards but it should be considered by IRCA to be acceptable.

Cheers,

[just me]

A more important question:

"how can a company who fail to address the needs of food safety meet the requirements of ISO9001:2000?"

surely this is a key customer requirement and the idea of ISO9001 is that you meet and exceed your customer requirements

Dear James,

I agree with you on this.

"Providing safe food is meeting customers' requiremens", true to be a KPI in a QMS.

But the thing is, does a QMS auditor know the definition of safe? Do they check and understand the meaning of biological, chemical and physical hazards?? So, often, this particualr KPI is just reviewed on general basis during an audit.

I have been with some clients who are ISO9K certified. Housekeeping was good. But the whole design of the place was not even meeting the Codex principles of food hygiene!! Because in a QMS audit, auditors do not study the structural design of the place in detail, they woudln't know the proper place to put on a fly trap, whether the movement of the people are contributing risk of cross contamination. Many may not even know, whether the cooking temperature stated in the SOP, and adhere by the workers, are sufficient to eliminate pathogens.

Cheers,

Thus, I do agree with Andrea, we will always find organizations who are ISO9K certified, but not meeting the minimum food safety requirements.

[Simon]

I apologize for taking a shot on IRCA, but the thing is, IMO, IRCA is quite rigid in approving FSMS auditors. They do not recognize audits based on other food safety standards such as the RvA standard, Danish standard, MS standard or even Codex. So the food safety people/auditors, even with years of experience in food safety system, were not able to comply with the 20 audit days requirements to be a certificated FSMS auditor. Hence the lacking in FS auditors.
Instead, QMS auditors are allowed to be converted to FSMS auditors.

Hey no problem I agree with you, it is ridiculous!

Sure, most FS people may not have comparable experience in management systems as the QMS or EMS auditors, but it would be much more easier for a food safety person to pick up the management issues, than for a QMS person to pick up food safety hazards and HACCP.

You are right, without any shadow of a doubt.

Good points well made 'Just me', thanks for your input.

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

they do not recognize audits based on other food safety standards such as the RvA standard, Danish standard, MS standard or even Codex

I do not agree with this opinion. IRCA is a globally recgonized body and despite the problems it is facing with regards to the adequacy of food auditors to meeting the audit demand of the new standard (ISO 22000) - all interested and qualifying individuals are invited to participate in the conversion program PROVIDED they meet the requirements that are clearly laid down WHETHER they have QMS background or not.

RvA etc are National Standards while Codex has played and is a core reference guideline to ISO 22000. So how can these standards be compared to ISO 22000 when the Gap is soooooooo big.

KPI to RvA etc may not be important BUT to ISO 22000 it is indeed a relevant element since it meets the requirements of measurable objectives. How esle can you measure performance if not benchamrked against KPI.

Indeed, RvA, Danish Standard etc are no longer matching to the demand of emerging new food laws and that is why even the Dutch and Danish Governments played a major role in getting ISO 22000 to and for the world.

Edited by charleschew, 05 May 2006 - 01:32 PM.

[just me]

Dear Simon,

Thank you. I feel much more consoled now...


Dear Charles,

I do not agree with this opinion. IRCA is a globally recgonized body and despite the problems it is facing with regards to the adequacy of food auditors to meeting the audit demand of the new standard (ISO 22000) - all interested and qualifying individuals are invited to participate in the conversion program PROVIDED they meet the requirements that are clearly laid down WHETHER they have QMS background or not.

RvA etc are National Standards while Codex has played and is a core reference guideline to ISO 22000. So how can these standards be compared to ISO 22000 when the Gap is soooooooo big.

Forgive me but I'm a bit confused here, you are not agreeing to the statement that IRCA does not recognise all the other standards, or to the fact that I'm comparing all other FS standards against ISO22000?

Because of the 20 audits days on these standards that have been submitted to IRCA, the reasoning given back was that "the standards to which you have audited are not considered relevant for the IRCA FSMS scheme".
I was so heart-brokened.....

KPI to RvA etc may not be important BUT to ISO 22000 it is indeed a relevant element since it meets the requirements of measurable objectives. How esle can you measure performance if not benchamrked against KPI.

There is KPI in RvA, we term it as food safety objectives, I think. IMO the concept is similar, KPI in QMS is always linked to the quality objectives, and it is used to measure on the performnce of a system, is it not? In all other FS standards, it was just not mentioned as KPI, but termed merely as FSO, also to measure the performance of the fs system.

Cheers,

[Esther]

Hey no problem I agree with you, it is ridiculous!
You are right, without any shadow of a doubt.

Good points well made 'Just me', thanks for your input.

Regards,
Simon

Hello Simon

I do agree that quote!!!!!

Regards
ESther

[Charles Chew]

Hi Wai Ling,

So sorry to hear your application with IRCA was not accepted due to the reasons you mentioned. Perhaps, the differences in other FSMs vs ISO 22000 is just too wide. Frankly, IMO BRC is probably the closest to ISO 22000 which is probably why BRC Food AUditors are coming through the conversion faster.

(I am on my lap top and out-of-town so unable to refer to IRCA guide on this matter ) but from what I remembered, IRCA requires a provisional to log in their audit WHEN guided through with an IRCA Registered Lead Food Auditor on ISO 22000.

Obviously there is a difference in the audit demand for ISO 22000 versus the rest of the FSM and if, according to your suggestion that 20 audit days against other FS standards should be accepted, I guess sadly, this is not the rule that IRCA has set.

On top of that I think some 100 mandays as a Consultant on ISO 22000.....(correct me if I am wrong) is also required - so the requirement is really very demanding.

Not to worry, I believe there is an IRCA-Approved ISO 22000 FULL Conversion COURSE provided by a group of experts from the EU is likely to come to Malaysia........


Regards
Charles

Edited by charleschew, 07 May 2006 - 02:15 AM.

[Charles Chew]

IMO the concept is similar, KPI in QMS is always linked to the quality objectives, and it is used to measure on the performnce of a system, is it not?

Hi Wai Ling

While KPI in QMS measures the performance of a quality management system, it is also essential that under ISO 22000, KPIs are designed to ensure measurable objectives of the Food Safety System/Plan are in place covering many segments of the FSM boundary including other matters related OPRPs & PRPs as a whole..........a lot not found or required by other FMS Standards.

Thats is why Guide 60 is the approach. Its a QMS approach to Food Safety but certainly not meant to suggest that an Engineer is likely to be more qualified than a Food Science Person.

Regards
Charles