35 replies to this topic

[Ieatcookies]

Hi there, 

 

Advise needed again. 

 

We are preparing for our first BRC certification, therefore this was never touched before. We are a small bakery, which is specialising in products for the minorities. We named on our products e.g. 'russian bread' whereas the bread is not from russia, nor any of its ingredients, or 'transylvanian bread' similar scenario, but bread contains typical to it potato present in their recipe. We do not have it validated anyhow. and how to prove that Transylvanian has a potato? I guess BBC cooking programme is not great source of knowledge. any ideas on where to find help?

[Food Police]

I am not entirely familiar with BRC code in regards to labeling, however I know there are a lot of loopholes when it comes to labeling claims here in the States.

 

My first thought was to maybe rename the products to include the word "inspired", like Russian Inspired Bread. I am sure there are other ways and mine probably isn't the best, but I hope you find your answer!

[QM-OS]

We would not be able to name products like you mention; "Russian Bread", without it actually being made in Russia. It would be regarded as misleading the consumer.

That's not so much a BRC code, more a national food regulation and dare I say EU food regulation. But I'm no expert...

[pHruit]

IIRC there is some potential scope for using an origin-related name where it is likely to be understood by the "average consumer" to relate to the "style" of the product, rather than strictly the origin/place of provenance.

I'm not sure that Russian Bread or Transylvanian Bread would satisfy this though, but you can always as your local TSO for some assured advice (there is a small cost to doing so, but it's far cheaper than using e.g. Leatherhead).

Without knowing the full details, I suspect that you may need to consider labelling as e.g. "Russian style bread", and this could then also potentially trigger the requirements of Article 26(2)(a) of Regulation (EU) 1169/2011, i.e. there may be a requirement to indicate the actual country of origin/place of provenance so as to not risk misleading the consumer.

For example, your label wording may end up as something like: Russian style bread, made in the UK using ingredients of various origins

Obviously the exact wording will depend on the specifics of the recipe, ingredients etc.

 

This guide from FDE is mainly focussed on the "origin indication of the primary ingredient" requirement (which itself may be a relevant consideration), but is worth a read nonetheless: https://www.fooddrin...redient_WEB.pdf

[SQFconsultant]

I have seen Russian "style" Black Bread - but also Russian Bread and Russian Black Bread and Traditional Russian Black Bread.

 

The term Russian is considered generic, not trade marked, can not be trade marked, etc.

 

I had a Polish bakery in Pittsburgh and their bread was called Polish Traditional Bread and Polish Style - so I take it any of those slogans are fine after or preceding the "Russian."

[pHruit]

I have seen Russian "style" Black Bread - but also Russian Bread and Russian Black Bread and Traditional Russian Black Bread.

 

The term Russian is considered generic, not trade marked, can not be trade marked, etc.

 

I had a Polish bakery in Pittsburgh and their bread was called Polish Traditional Bread and Polish Style - so I take it any of those slogans are fine after or preceding the "Russian."

 

Worth noting that leatcookies  appears to be based in the UK, and is subject to the EU regs on this - to my understanding these are a bit more prescriptive than the US approach.

[moskito]

Hi,

 

in Germany we have a guidline on Fine Bakery Wares defining an common understanding (consumer, authorities, industry, association) applied in trade. The name "Russisch Brot" is used since mid of the 19th century for special biscuits in letter form in Germany and Austria. Russisch Brot - perhaps - was invented beginning 18th century in St. Perterburg, Russia.

https://www.bmel.de/...eBackwaren.html

p 14 7a

 

IMO this kind of products is not dedicated to the special origin labelling -in Germany and Austria. It is not misleading. Exporting it to other countries the "history" and the general understnading has to be checked.

 

Rgds

 

moskito

[El Molino]

We have a salsa product we named Cowboy Caviar - however there is no caviar - CFIA did a double take when we showed the label included wording "salsa" 

No labeling violations - its just a play on words

[GMO]

It's an interesting topic, it comes down to whether it has become a generic term or not.  So for example, if you bought "Cheddar" you would not expect it only to have been made in Somerset in the UK and not all Frankfurters are from Frankfurt.

 

I would say a UK consumer would not see Russian  Bread as being a generic term and so would reasonably expect it to have been produced in Russia.  In EU and UK law we have general principle that you shall not mislead the consumer.  "Russian style bread" would feel more reasonable.

[Ieatcookies]

I must say I left this subject for time being, but it is coming back now. I really hoped that it will not cause much extra work. Most of our products state some kind of provenance. 

I hoped that transilvanian bread will be accepted, like ukrainian borscht, which is a pretty much beetroot soup :D or greek salad - some veg with the feta. 

[olenazh]

It's an interesting topic, it comes down to whether it has become a generic term or not.  So for example, if you bought "Cheddar" you would not expect it only to have been made in Somerset in the UK and not all Frankfurters are from Frankfurt.

 

I would say a UK consumer would not see Russian  Bread as being a generic term and so would reasonably expect it to have been produced in Russia.  In EU and UK law we have general principle that you shall not mislead the consumer.  "Russian style bread" would feel more reasonable.

Really interesting! Though, Canadian regulatory bodies (e.g. Canadian Food Inspection Agency) do not object "Greek yogurts" claiming that those should be named "Greek Style yogurts". We also have here Balkan yogurt as well as Balkan style yogurt.

 

I must say I left this subject for time being, but it is coming back now. I really hoped that it will not cause much extra work. Most of our products state some kind of provenance. 

I hoped that transilvanian bread will be accepted, like ukrainian borscht, which is a pretty much beetroot soup :D or greek salad - some veg with the feta. 

Ukranian borscht is not simply beetroot soup, that would be too primitive - it's much more complicated dish with very long history, various recipes and tremendous taste:)

[GMO]

Really interesting! Though, Canadian regulatory bodies (e.g. Canadian Food Inspection Agency) do not object "Greek yogurts" claiming that those should be named "Greek Style yogurts". We also have here Balkan yogurt as well as Balkan style yogurt.
 

Under UK / EU law to be called "Greek Yogurt" it has to have been made in Greece. I'm glad of it to be honest because the crap people put out as "Greek Style" is a shocker. All they do is add fat whereas proper Greek yogurt also has high protein. Skyr is a better substitute if you can't get the real deal.

[Mathieu Colmant]

Well, following EU rules, becoming clearer with each new development, I would consider pHruit's solution : 

"Russian style bread, made in the UK using ingredients of various origins"

 

You can sell it with "Russian bread" name, but this sentence should appear somewhere, for example above the list of ingredients and eventually linked with a "*" to the name, which should give : 

 

RUSSIAN BREAD *

 

*Russian style bread made in th UK with ingredients of various origins

Ingredients : Wheat (contains gluten), salt, yeast,...

[GMO]

Interesting because practically you don't see that with other products and I still suspect it could be seen as misleading if it's only in the small print.

I'm thinking of Greek Yogurt vs Greek Style yogurt for example.
They will never use "Greek Yogurt" as the main descriptor if it's not made in Greece.

Well, following EU rules, becoming clearer with each new development, I would consider pHruit's solution : 
"Russian style bread, made in the UK using ingredients of various origins"
 
You can sell it with "Russian bread" name, but this sentence should appear somewhere, for example above the list of ingredients and eventually linked with a "*" to the name, which should give : 
 
RUSSIAN BREAD *
 
*Russian style bread made in th UK with ingredients of various origins
Ingredients : Wheat (contains gluten), salt, yeast,...

[Ieatcookies]

Guys, 

 

I have made some research basically based on the resource provided here. Our factory is purely slavic bakery and we are pretty much slavic people. 

I wonder if I could use this as a explanation to my russian bread - made by russians and trained russian bakers in russia (which is not a lie?). Resource said:

 

From the link provided below:

https://www.fooddrin...redient_WEB.pdf

 

i get: 

'The geographical indications included in generic and customary names can refer to: 

- A method of production, a recipe, or a culinary characteristic...'

 

So if this will be a yay! answer, would i have to prepare the written reasoning for each product with provenance? Although we are slavic, we still make parisian roll   

[pHruit]

i get: 

'The geographical indications included in generic and customary names can refer to: 

- A method of production, a recipe, or a culinary characteristic...'

 

 

As I read it, there are some other highly salient points in this paragraph of the guidance (my emphasis in bold) that I believe should be considered as a whole in conjunction with the extract you've quoted:

...rather than informing the consumer of the geographical origin of the food, it (the name) indicates that the food has been produced according to a specific recipe or method of production, or using certain ingredients/flavours, thus allowing the consumer to identify a certain product and/or underline a certain quality/taste of the product. In some cases, the recipes and methods of production have been codified by private or public bodies and organisations, in other cases, they have not been codified as such but they are well known and understood by consumers.

 

I also think this should be read in the context of the intent of Regulation (EU) 1169/2011, i.e. providing information so that consumers can make informed choices about the products they buy.

 

There might be a (possibly tenuous - I'd certainly check with my local TSO before using it!) argument if you are producing this for solely for a specialist market such as distribution only to Polski skleps that the "average" consumer there will understand that it is a style of product, although the same argument somewhat falls down when considering the Greek Yoghurt example discussed above.

Otherwise for more general distribution, I'm still doubtful that the average British consumer is going to understand that this is a style of baked good, rather than erroneously infer that it is one that originates from Russia.

[Ieatcookies]

There might be a (possibly tenuous - I'd certainly check with my local TSO before using it!) argument if you are producing this for solely for a specialist market such as distribution only to Polski skleps that the "average" consumer there will understand that it is a style of product, although the same argument somewhat falls down when considering the Greek Yoghurt example discussed above.

Otherwise for more general distribution, I'm still doubtful that the average British consumer is going to understand that this is a style of baked good, rather than erroneously infer that it is one that originates from Russia.

I will check with TSO - this actually saves my life, as we only sell in Polski Skleps

[GMO]

 

There might be a (possibly tenuous - I'd certainly check with my local TSO before using it!) argument if you are producing this for solely for a specialist market such as distribution only to Polski skleps

 

I will check with TSO - this actually saves my life, as we only sell in Polski Skleps

 

A couple of things to be wary of.  One is much of the product in Polski Skleps is imported so to have something claiming to be Russian but not Russian or at least not Eastern European may still be classed as misleading.

 

Secondly a TSO doesn't (or at least shouldn't) give advice anymore unless you've paid for them to be your home authority.  Any advice they do give will not save you from being prosecuted.  There are two reasons for this.  How things were before, TSOs in one area could interpret the law differently to another.  If you pay for home authority advice, they can give a legally binding opinion.  Secondly, money, money, money... of course!

 

On balance if you're only selling in the Polski Skleps the "small print" option is probably fine.  If not, then I'd be more cautious but I'd certainly include the fact it's made in the UK somewhere.  (The only having Slavic staff stuff just doesn't wash I'm afraid, it's a big stretch in the interpretation and could leave you at risk of a discrimination case.)

[pHruit]

Very valid points, GMO. I should have provided more detail as I confess I'd assumed a more general awareness of the current TSO position, and also that the TSO themselves would be keen to provide so-called "Assured Advice" as it brings in more cash

Nonetheless I'd still recommend that as a route to check before going ahead with labelling claims that sit in a very grey area at best. If you've got a good relationship with the TSO they may give some informal feedback at no cost initially, but in any case the assured advice is very good value compared to equivalents from third-party services IMEX, and carries more legal standing (although again it's worth noting that it doesn't necessarily provide complete protection from a legal challenge).

[Charles.C]

Just for the uninitiated like myself, I guess this is an example of  Polski Skleps (Shops) -

 

 Polski Sklep.PNG   790.38KB   3 downloads

 

(Swindon)

[pHruit]

Hi Charles, yes, exactly that - now quite a common site in towns of all sizes around the UK. Often a great source of some interesting products beyond the usual supermarket stuff, and some quite interesting labelling too

[GMO]

Hi Charles, yes, exactly that - now quite a common site in towns of all sizes around the UK. Often a great source of some interesting products beyond the usual supermarket stuff, and some quite interesting labelling too

 

"Interesting" as in "totally illegal"???  

 

I've never reported to the TSO on some of these shops with only Polish labelling but someone could some day.  

[Ieatcookies]

Oh my...

 

I will prepare the explanation for the labelling to the auditor for each particular product, and we will see what they say. I will definitely feed you back. 

PS. TSO doesnt answer the phone :) 

[pHruit]

"Interesting" as in "totally illegal"???  

 

I've never reported to the TSO on some of these shops with only Polish labelling but someone could some day.  

Yes, those are the ones

Similar with many of the good Chinese grocery shops - some amazing food, but would be lost without the helpful lady that runs the local one as I'd have literally no idea what some of the products are, let alone what is in them...

 

Oh my...

 

I will prepare the explanation for the labelling to the auditor for each particular product, and we will see what they say. I will definitely feed you back. 

PS. TSO doesnt answer the phone :) 

Not entirely surprised - neither Trading Standards nor Environmental Health seem to be exactly drowning in resources at present. I think this is one of the reasons they're pushing Primary Authority so hard in many places, as it's some extra income.

Nonetheless with something in a grey area, as your potential label seems to be, I'd be inclined to persist in getting an opinion in advance. If you're a member of any industry associations it may also be worth speaking to them - we're part of one that has a Primary Authority relationship of its own, and can be useful for getting advice as an industry sector but also relatively quickly

[GMO]

 

Not entirely surprised - neither Trading Standards nor Environmental Health seem to be exactly drowning in resources at present. I think this is one of the reasons they're pushing Primary Authority so hard in many places, as it's some extra income.

 

That said, they're not auditing either from what I can see... so unless they're furloughed, they should really have the time...