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Auditor Competence Requirements for ISO 22000


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wayne

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 04:12 PM

Dear all

May I add that when comes to certification (esp ISO22000), the size of the CB is NOT important. What is important is the qualification and experience of the appointed auditor(s).

Regards



Charles Chew

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 04:51 PM

May I add that when comes to certification (esp ISO22000), the size of the CB is NOT important. What is important is the qualification and experience of the appointed auditor(s).



Hi Wayne,

Verified against the information provided earlier by James when only a list of 6 CBs receiving ISO 22000 registration from UKAS out of a total of 29 participant CBs, the situation appears even more serious when "unregistered" CBs continue to claim rights to certification. (I wish that the parent company would advise their overseas representative offices to stop this claim as it was obviously done for commercial gains without considering the professional ethics rotting away........Wayne, do you have this problem where you come from.

Furthermore, I have strong reasons to believe that some provisional food auditors are being pursued to "lend" their names for ISO 22000 audit but when the actual audit owrk was performed by some one else. I was shocked to learn about this. Has anyone come across this sort of practices. As far s I know, provisional auditors are NOT competent to perform audit :dunno:

Any of these sort of situations where you come from?

Cheers,
Charles Chew
www.naturalmajor.com

wayne

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 05:55 PM

Charles

I haven't come across this and it is indeed a serious issue. I do not and cannot understand why that CB has done this. Anyone else has picked up this sort of "practice" from their end? However, I do learn that there are unaccredited CBs continue to claim their rights for certification of ISO22000. Charles, how do you handle this situation when one of your potential clients asks: I don't care as long as I am given a piece of paper!!!

As you are aware that there are only a handful of FSMS lead auditors around the world and be honest-where can these provisional auditors turn to for help. Furthermore, there are only a handful of companies have been certified to ISO22000 and how long these provisional auditors have to queue up for this opportunity?

I do agree that professional ethics are ( and have been) rotting away. This would be an interesting exercise if a register can be set up in this forum to monitor the statistics.

Wayne



Esther

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 06:31 PM

Hi Wayne,

Verified against the information provided earlier by James when only a list of 6 CBs receiving ISO 22000 registration from UKAS out of a total of 29 participant CBs, the situation appears even more serious when "unregistered" CBs continue to claim rights to certification. (I wish that the parent company would advise their overseas representative offices to stop this claim as it was obviously done for commercial gains without considering the professional ethics rotting away........Wayne, do you have this problem where you come from.

Furthermore, I have strong reasons to believe that some provisional food auditors are being pursued to "lend" their names for ISO 22000 audit but when the actual audit owrk was performed by some one else. I was shocked to learn about this. Has anyone come across this sort of practices. As far s I know, provisional auditors are NOT competent to perform audit :dunno:

Any of these sort of situations where you come from?


Hello Charleschew and Wayne


Another irregular situation: the CB is who implement and certify a management system in a company. I understand that this is not allow by the acreditation bodies.

Is this a less surprising irregular situation than the one you pointed ?

Regards
Esther


jamesgibb

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 07:34 PM

Charles et al.

Regarding auditor competence I have just been witnessed (for all of last week) by a UKAS auditor following me whilst auditing 2 resturants in Northern Cyprus.

I can confirm that the CB's approved by UKAS so far will have had all auditors witnessed in a similar manner. The problem Wayne has identified regarding provisional or trainee auditors can be solved by this person "shadowing" an approved auditor and then being witnessed auditing by a competent person.

Within Global after the audit we now have 1 "competent" FSMS auditor. (it says so in the UKAS report and everything! :thumbup: ) In addition we have one "competent" trainee auditor who meets all the criteria for FSMS (as required by the current version of ISO22000) but according to Global's system he must be witnessed by me (as the already approved person) and a decision will be made on their approval status as a result of this witness.

Other CB's follow similar processes and are required to validate each auditor in the field before approval. This is a change that will affect ALL certification as QMS and EMS auditors will also require this as a result of ISO17021.

UKAS are very strict in this case and I quote from the report: "Global must ensure that the approach used during these assessments be maintained when ISO22000 assessments are rolled out throughout their partner network."

If this is not the case the recommendation for accreditation will be suspended and then withdrawn.

Wayne, I think you're based in Malaysia? If so please contact our office in Malaysia and it may be possible to work together to increase your experience in FSMS and expand the Global Client base at the same time. simply e mail malaysia@globalcertification.com and tell them James Gibb asked you to contact them

***IMPORTANT NEWS***

ISO22003 is currently being reviewed by all CB's involved in ISO22003 and the comments must be provided to UKAS by 30-6-06. It is therefore likley that the competence requirements for auditors will change but currently they are as follows:

B.1 Education
All the FSMS auditors shall have the knowledge corresponding to a post secondary coursework in general
microbiology and general chemistry.

The auditors shall have the knowledge corresponding to a post secondary education with coursework in the
food chain industry category where they conduct FSMS audits. For instance:

a) for food industry: food microbiology, food processing fundamentals and food chemistry/analysis

b) for agricultural (growing): crop protection, plant production and horticulture science

c) for agricultural (breeding): animal science

d) for packaging/food machine/engineering industry, HOTELS AND CATERING/RESTURANTS : engineering courses related to the discipline.

-the hotels and catering bit is in the wrong place and is one of the comments Global has sent to UKAS, it should be in a)

B.2 Work experience

a) For a first qualification in one or more category/ies, the auditors shall have a minimum of 5 years full time
experience in the food chain related industry, including at least 2 years work in quality assurance or food
safety functions within food production or manufacturing, retailing, inspection or enforcement or the
equivalent.

b) For extension to a new category, the certification body shall demonstrate the auditor has the required
competences through relevant education and experience as given.

B.3 Auditor training
The FSMS auditor shall have successfully completed training in audit techniques based on ISO 19011 and in
food safety issues relating to

a) food safety management principles;

b) relevant FSMS (e.g. ISO 22000);

Global have suggested additionally training on biosecurity and specifically HACCP as currently this is a weak area

B.4 Audit experience

For a first qualification, the FSMS auditor shall have performed within the last 3 years at least 20 audit days in at least 4 organizations, under the leadership of a qualified auditor.

In Global worldwide we have about 10 auditors who meet all of the requirements (except for the ISO22000 audit experience) and probabley 30 who meet all criteria except for work experience.

It is important to appreciate that being approved as FSMS auditor does not always mean that the auditor is competent to audit all food companies. For example I have no experience with seafood and would not be classified competent inside Global for auditing a seafood company without another person who meets the above requirements for seafood to conduct the FSMS audit with me.

The Point that Charles has raised regarding professionals putting their name to work carried out by "incompetent" persons. This situation has occured several times for UKAS CB's in China and the Middle East that I am aware of. In Global we run a query within our database of audits every month and this identifys abnormal audit timings (2 audits in the same day or 1 day in Guandong and the next day in Penang and the day after in Guandong again). I don't know what other CB's do in order to prevent this.

I can only suggest that If you know who these "professionals" are then knowing that they have no integrity I would suggest not working with them.

Charles, could you IM me any names that you think may try to work for Global so that I can monitor them closley if they do approach Global?

Ester,

Consultancy and Certification agreements are unfortunatley common in many places, The problem for these relationships is often that the consultancy is of poor quality becuase there is a "confortable" audit carried out due to the agreement. This has not been possible so far for ISO22000 because of the poor quality consultancy being accepted for ISO9000 and HACCP the client who accept this are being failed for ISO22000 by the CB's because with UKAS watching the audits it is impossible for the audit to be "confortable".

The responsibility is with the consumers (IE: You) to complain to UKAS (or any other AB such as ENAC) if they find this situation and the AB is obliged to investigate. Global had such a complaint placed by a competitor in Spain about 3 years ago and were found not guilty so it is often a trick for competitors to complain to prevent a CB working but if the complaint is from a consumer and not another CB teh AB will be more obliged to investigate rapidly.

Sorry for the Massive post but I've been unable to post all week.

I'm not going to be able to respond until 27th June as I am having a holiday for a week after 6 days consecutive ISO22000 witnessed audits!

James


"arguing with an auditor is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realise that the pig enjoys it"

Charles Chew

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 05:18 PM

Hello James,

I have been and is still very busy on our ISO 22000 consulting but time is justified for a great fellow contributor of this forum.

Do allow me to congratulate you on your successful witness audit by UKAS in Cyprus and for becoming your Company's 1st FSMS Auditor by witness qualifications. Its a great start for GLOBAL!

Well done mate!


Gotta To Go
Charles


Cheers,
Charles Chew
www.naturalmajor.com

APPAJI

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 05:30 PM

Hello James,

I have been and is still very busy on our ISO 22000 consulting but time is justified for a great fellow contributor of this forum.

Do allow me to congratulate you on your successful witness audit by UKAS in Cyprus and for becoming your Company's 1st FSMS Auditor by witness qualifications. Its a great start for GLOBAL!

Well done mate!
Gotta To Go
Charles


Yes
GREAT JOB DONE AND YOU DO NEED A HOLIDAY- CONGRATULATIONS
APPAJI


Esther

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 05:24 PM

Charles et al.

Regarding auditor competence I have just been witnessed (for all of last week) by a UKAS auditor following me whilst auditing 2 resturants in Northern Cyprus.

I can confirm that the CB's approved by UKAS so far will have had all auditors witnessed in a similar manner. The problem Wayne has identified regarding provisional or trainee auditors can be solved by this person "shadowing" an approved auditor and then being witnessed auditing by a competent person.

Within Global after the audit we now have 1 "competent" FSMS auditor. (it says so in the UKAS report and everything! :thumbup: ) In addition we have one "competent" trainee auditor who meets all the criteria for FSMS (as required by the current version of ISO22000) but according to Global's system he must be witnessed by me (as the already approved person) and a decision will be made on their approval status as a result of this witness.

Other CB's follow similar processes and are required to validate each auditor in the field before approval. This is a change that will affect ALL certification as QMS and EMS auditors will also require this as a result of ISO17021.

UKAS are very strict in this case and I quote from the report: "Global must ensure that the approach used during these assessments be maintained when ISO22000 assessments are rolled out throughout their partner network."

If this is not the case the recommendation for accreditation will be suspended and then withdrawn.

Wayne, I think you're based in Malaysia? If so please contact our office in Malaysia and it may be possible to work together to increase your experience in FSMS and expand the Global Client base at the same time. simply e mail malaysia@globalcertification.com and tell them James Gibb asked you to contact them

***IMPORTANT NEWS***

ISO22003 is currently being reviewed by all CB's involved in ISO22003 and the comments must be provided to UKAS by 30-6-06. It is therefore likley that the competence requirements for auditors will change but currently they are as follows:

B.1 Education
All the FSMS auditors shall have the knowledge corresponding to a post secondary coursework in general
microbiology and general chemistry.

The auditors shall have the knowledge corresponding to a post secondary education with coursework in the
food chain industry category where they conduct FSMS audits. For instance:

a) for food industry: food microbiology, food processing fundamentals and food chemistry/analysis

b) for agricultural (growing): crop protection, plant production and horticulture science

c) for agricultural (breeding): animal science

d) for packaging/food machine/engineering industry, HOTELS AND CATERING/RESTURANTS : engineering courses related to the discipline.

-the hotels and catering bit is in the wrong place and is one of the comments Global has sent to UKAS, it should be in a)

B.2 Work experience

a) For a first qualification in one or more category/ies, the auditors shall have a minimum of 5 years full time
experience in the food chain related industry, including at least 2 years work in quality assurance or food
safety functions within food production or manufacturing, retailing, inspection or enforcement or the
equivalent.

b) For extension to a new category, the certification body shall demonstrate the auditor has the required
competences through relevant education and experience as given.

B.3 Auditor training
The FSMS auditor shall have successfully completed training in audit techniques based on ISO 19011 and in
food safety issues relating to

a) food safety management principles;

b) relevant FSMS (e.g. ISO 22000);

Global have suggested additionally training on biosecurity and specifically HACCP as currently this is a weak area

B.4 Audit experience

For a first qualification, the FSMS auditor shall have performed within the last 3 years at least 20 audit days in at least 4 organizations, under the leadership of a qualified auditor.

In Global worldwide we have about 10 auditors who meet all of the requirements (except for the ISO22000 audit experience) and probabley 30 who meet all criteria except for work experience.

It is important to appreciate that being approved as FSMS auditor does not always mean that the auditor is competent to audit all food companies. For example I have no experience with seafood and would not be classified competent inside Global for auditing a seafood company without another person who meets the above requirements for seafood to conduct the FSMS audit with me.

The Point that Charles has raised regarding professionals putting their name to work carried out by "incompetent" persons. This situation has occured several times for UKAS CB's in China and the Middle East that I am aware of. In Global we run a query within our database of audits every month and this identifys abnormal audit timings (2 audits in the same day or 1 day in Guandong and the next day in Penang and the day after in Guandong again). I don't know what other CB's do in order to prevent this.

I can only suggest that If you know who these "professionals" are then knowing that they have no integrity I would suggest not working with them.

Charles, could you IM me any names that you think may try to work for Global so that I can monitor them closley if they do approach Global?

Ester,

Consultancy and Certification agreements are unfortunatley common in many places, The problem for these relationships is often that the consultancy is of poor quality becuase there is a "confortable" audit carried out due to the agreement. This has not been possible so far for ISO22000 because of the poor quality consultancy being accepted for ISO9000 and HACCP the client who accept this are being failed for ISO22000 by the CB's because with UKAS watching the audits it is impossible for the audit to be "confortable".

The responsibility is with the consumers (IE: You) to complain to UKAS (or any other AB such as ENAC) if they find this situation and the AB is obliged to investigate. Global had such a complaint placed by a competitor in Spain about 3 years ago and were found not guilty so it is often a trick for competitors to complain to prevent a CB working but if the complaint is from a consumer and not another CB teh AB will be more obliged to investigate rapidly.

Sorry for the Massive post but I've been unable to post all week.

I'm not going to be able to respond until 27th June as I am having a holiday for a week after 6 days consecutive ISO22000 witnessed audits!

James



Hello James

Thank you for your answer.

Have a nice holiday time!

regards
Esther


Simon

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 05:57 PM

Just like to add my congratulations and best wishes to you James.

Regards,
Simon


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