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wayne

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:43 PM

Hello All

One of my engineering friends is a QMS auditor; his only food experience is growing a few spuds in his allotment. Somehow, he has been successfully managed to become a certified FSMS auditor. I am really worry about the quality future of ISO22K? Can someone make comment on this? Thanks

Wayne



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Posted 23 June 2006 - 08:47 PM

Hello Wayne,

Surely he will be OK if he sticks to auditing french fries and potato chips. :yeahrite:

When you look at the hoops James Gibb has had to go through to gain his stripes:
http://www.saferpak....?showtopic=4044

It does seem a little inconsistent.

How does your friend measure up against the required qualifications and experience as mentioned in Mr Gibb's post?

ISO22003 is currently being reviewed by all CB's involved in ISO22003 and the comments must be provided to UKAS by 30-6-06. It is therefore likley that the competence requirements for auditors will change but currently they are as follows:

B.1 Education
All the FSMS auditors shall have the knowledge corresponding to a post secondary coursework in general
microbiology and general chemistry.

The auditors shall have the knowledge corresponding to a post secondary education with coursework in the
food chain industry category where they conduct FSMS audits. For instance:

a) for food industry: food microbiology, food processing fundamentals and food chemistry/analysis

b) for agricultural (growing): crop protection, plant production and horticulture science

c) for agricultural (breeding): animal science

d) for packaging/food machine/engineering industry, HOTELS AND CATERING/RESTURANTS : engineering courses related to the discipline.

-the hotels and catering bit is in the wrong place and is one of the comments Global has sent to UKAS, it should be in a)

B.2 Work experience

a) For a first qualification in one or more category/ies, the auditors shall have a minimum of 5 years full time
experience in the food chain related industry, including at least 2 years work in quality assurance or food
safety functions within food production or manufacturing, retailing, inspection or enforcement or the
equivalent.

b) For extension to a new category, the certification body shall demonstrate the auditor has the required
competences through relevant education and experience as given.

B.3 Auditor training
The FSMS auditor shall have successfully completed training in audit techniques based on ISO 19011 and in
food safety issues relating to

a) food safety management principles;

b) relevant FSMS (e.g. ISO 22000);

Global have suggested additionally training on biosecurity and specifically HACCP as currently this is a weak area

B.4 Audit experience

For a first qualification, the FSMS auditor shall have performed within the last 3 years at least 20 audit days in at least 4 organizations, under the leadership of a qualified auditor.

If he patently doesn't measure up, this things fast turning into a sham and the powers that be need to be informed - but who? And would you really snitch on your friend?

We have a saying in England "Where there's muck there's brass" which means - where there are dirty jobs to be done there is money to be made.

It's an old saying and in these modern times I think it would be more releavnt to say "where there's brass there's muck!"

Regards,
Simon

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Charles Chew

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 02:58 PM

It does seem a little inconsistent.

How does your friend measure up against the required qualifications and experience as mentioned in Mr Gibb's post?



Simon,

I believe and am sad to say that what we are presently aware of the unhealthy practices of "engineering FSMS ISO 22K auditors" by major interested corporate parties is only the tip of the iceberg.

What about unqualified "engineered FSMS ISO 22000 Auditors / Speakers" currently conducting ISO 22000 Lead Auditor Conversion courses all over the world. I know at least of 4 major organizations doing this right now. Its bloody shameful and if allowed to continue rotting away, I am afraid ISO 22000 is heading for a disastrous ending as a global standard.

IMO, these corporate mobs had over the last 10 years showed us how they ruthlessly ran over HACCP certifications all over the world and the modus operandi is likely to continue. Maybe Saferpak has a significant role to play here. Are you missing out on something?

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Charles Chew
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Posted 25 June 2006 - 04:19 PM

Surely he will be OK if he sticks to auditing french fries and potato chips. :yeahrite:

I think even on french fries and potato chips, this engineer would have trouble auditing... :headhurts:
Trying asking him about polar compound... or trans and cis... :death:

Sad, sad


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Posted 25 June 2006 - 06:12 PM

IMO, these corporate mobs had over the last 10 years showed us how they ruthlessly ran over HACCP certifications all over the world and the modus operandi is likely to continue. Maybe Saferpak has a significant role to play here. Are you missing out on something?


Give me a clue mate?

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Charles Chew

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 06:45 PM

Give me a clue mate?



James had actually done us a great favor when he posted the web site about the recently ISO 22K registered CBs just the other day. I thought that was a marvellous way of keeping everyone else informed and current and I bet that was what he had intended. I have not visited the UKAS web site since but tell me, was this news highlighted over in UK or Europe :dunno:

And, the only organization that keeps the records of Registered FSMS Food Auditors in the world is certainly silent on the merits as to how these "new" FSMS Auditors are being accepted "provisional or otherwise.

IMO, Saferpak could champion its own "Invitational QMS, BRC/IFS & FSMS Auditor Record" for members and public references so that whoever wishes to seek an auditor would find their curriculum vitae on records here ....... and I bet those who are inferior to the task would unlikely take up this challenge.

For example, I am seriously looking for a BRC-Food Auditor to perform an initial BRC Food Audit in Malaysia later this year and I know my options in my country and I am NOT prepared to let these "engineered BRC Auditors" perform the audit simply because they are just not up to it.

However, I would be confident to choose one (if Saferpak has a refer list) where I have details of the audit experiences of the auditor that I would like to engage.

Are you willing to match this proposal to save the world :thumbup:

Cheers,
Charles Chew
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Posted 25 June 2006 - 07:18 PM

James had actually done us a great favor when he posted the web site about the recently ISO 22K registered CBs just the other day. I thought that was a marvellous way of keeping everyone else informed and current and I bet that was what he had intended. I have not visited the UKAS web site since but tell me, was this news highlighted over in UK or Europe :dunno:

I didn't see anything. The list is there but hidden away on the UKAS website.

And, the only organization that keeps the records of Registered FSMS Food Auditors in the world is certainly silent on the merits as to how these "new" FSMS Auditors are being accepted "provisional or otherwise. However, I would be confident to choose one (if Saferpak has a refer list) where I have details of the audit experiences of the auditor that I would like to engage.

Are you willing to match this proposal to save the world :thumbup:


If it means saving the world I'm duty bound to try. However, I feel we are doing all we can; the Food Safety Standards Directory? is very visible and waiting for Certification Bodies to list themselves. It is the perfect place for to find an Accredited Certification Body and more importantly a suitable auditor. The contact details are included and you can ask them for the qualifications / experience of the auditor they propose for your assignment. Problem is not so many CB's have spotted this opportunity thus far.

Regards,
Simon

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Charles Chew

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 02:06 AM

This global problem reminded me of the concept of "marriage of convenience" some 20 odd years back when Australia and New Zealand were unwearily opening doors for illegals.

However, I feel we are doing all we can; the Food Safety Standards Directory? is very visible and waiting for Certification Bodies to list themselves.

Yes, maybe we forgot to tell them registration is free :whistle:

Problem is not so many CB's have spotted this opportunity thus far.

I will try to do my part.

Cheers,
Charles Chew
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wayne

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Posted 26 June 2006 - 06:08 PM

Many thanks to Simon, James and Charles to keep this line alive.

My engineering friend can never be measured up against the requirements, say B1 and B2 but may be partly met B3.

Sometimes it is the "policemen" who breach the rules' other time it is induced by the "business arrangements". I am sure if the whistle blower can be indemnified more live can be saved.

It is rather sad to see that this new standard (ISO22000) is (has been ) excessively abused at this early stage.

Can someone tell me that a food person should work towards a "six sigma" or a "zero tolerance"?

Regards

Wayne



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Posted 27 June 2006 - 06:26 AM

Dear All,
It's somewhat off-topic but after reading some of these fascinating threads on auditing, I felt driven to add a comment -
I have occasionally (but not recently) seen (IT) published samples of actual audits demonstrating how an auditor determined the company's compliance (or not) with BRC food standard requirements and also a few publications by auditing companies detailing their interpretations / expectations of the meaning of some of the more 'difficult' items in ISO9000/2000 standards.
I have yet to see any published examples detailing an actual assessment of an auditor's competence whereby they are subsequently judged fit to be launched into the public arena. Is a scoring system involved? Major-Minor failings? I would certainly be interested to know how they assess post secondary education in food microbiology - can see the deliberate error in E.Coli??
Regards / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Posted 27 June 2006 - 09:06 PM

Dear All,
It's somewhat off-topic but after reading some of these fascinating threads on auditing, I felt driven to add a comment -
I have occasionally (but not recently) seen (IT) published samples of actual audits demonstrating how an auditor determined the company's compliance (or not) with BRC food standard requirements and also a few publications by auditing companies detailing their interpretations / expectations of the meaning of some of the more "difficult" items in ISO9000/2000 standards.
I have yet to see any published examples detailing an actual assessment of an auditor's competence whereby they are subsequently judged fit to be launched into the public arena. Is a scoring system involved? Major-Minor failings? I would certainly be interested to know how they assess post secondary education in food microbiology - can see the deliberate error in E.Coli??
Regards / Charles.C


Hello Charles,

As we have witnesed in the world cup sometimes it's the officials who need to be shown the red card. Anyhow ISO 22000 is very new, so how do members say we address the problem of assuring auditor competence for this global standard?

Regards,

Simon

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 02:50 AM

And, the only organization that keeps the records of Registered FSMS Food Auditors in the world is certainly silent on the merits as to how these "new" FSMS Auditors are being accepted "provisional or otherwise.


Dear Charles Chew (since there is another Charles here),

IRCA is not the only one, just that they are the more reknown one. Try RABQSA (USA-Australia). The requirements in terms of audit experience is somewhat different, as they accept HACCP audits, not just plain old ISO.

Personnally, I felt that being certificated by IRCA seems a big thing because most CBs hails from UK, and under the UKAS pilot scheme.

Cheers,


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Posted 28 June 2006 - 03:51 AM

I am really worry about the quality future of ISO22K? Can someone make comment on this? Thanks


Dear Wayne,

I'm afraid the unscrupulous world is just like that. IRCA can only do the best they can. It's like the law, ppl will tend to find loop holes. The fact that the 6 CBs initially acredited might have good people in their UK based HQ, but the managing team of CBs in other countries might not be as "honest". How far can IRCA control?

Although IRCA can be unfair at times (sorry, Simon), but I think they are doing what they can, technically or even politically.

But are we not stressing too much on the paper? Like what was mentioned earlier, being certificated doesn't mean a person is competent. However, most auditees wouldn't care about that, the management just wants the HACCP cert.

I believe in the systems (be it ISO or HACCP), but in where I come from, the people are just not making it work. Most have just the forms, but no substance. It's a sad sad world.

Still try to cheer,


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Posted 02 July 2006 - 04:25 AM

Hello All

It is rather quiet here. I assume that you are all hiding behind the world cup.

After having a cupa tea with my engineering friend, I have a fascinating thread on auditing to share:

......... QMS converted FSMS auditors are (and have been) sitting in their comfort zone for so long and they are skillfully using the similar approach for a FSMS audit. It is nothing wrong with it. However, my engineering friend (sorry mate!) is so pround to have detected a deficiency in his client's FSMS policy & objectives. He concluded that a zero tolerance is not achievable and thus a N/C was given to his client. He argued that a six sigma approach should be taken.

My God! Can anyone imagine that how many lives will be ended up at the traffic junction if your risk assessment / policy is based upon six sigma?

Can you imagine how a cross bordered auditor NOT having a correct interpretation of the standard as well as the understanding of "statutory & regulatory requirements" can screw up his client's system?

Simon, we all know that ISO22000 is very new; there are so much to be learned. However, it appears that there are problems for many "bordered auditors" in understanding of the fundamental principles in risk assessment and risk management required within the food sector.

Regards

Wayne



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Posted 03 July 2006 - 04:49 AM

Dear Wayne,

Interesting indeed. I pitied the auditee. Most food people don't even know what is with 6 sigma...

Looks like stormy days ahead...

Cheers,



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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:41 AM

Wayne,

With the recent bilateral agreement signed between IRCA and RABQSA, do you think this idea will improve auditor competency generally.

Its interesting to note that both institutions operate on totally different meritocracy policies on qualifications of Food Auditors but is willing to accept peer to peer rcognition.

Get this feeling that IRCA is pressured into it since RABQSA has a big pool of ready FSMS Auditors (from previous QSA). Maybe this will help address problems like your engineering friends type of FSMS Auditors

So whats behind this move made by IRCA appear to be - a marriage of convenience :dunno:


Cheers,
Charles Chew
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