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sydneysmith544

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 02:18 PM

Hi all,

 

First off let me say how happy I am to have found this website and forum! It has helped me out so much on this new journey. 

 

My father owns a small (15 employees at the most) pet treat manufacturing business. We have always been relatively small and so have our customers. Well, a big opportunity came from a customer and started throwing around GFSI certification, and as much as I hate to say it, we had no idea what he was talking about. So the last few  months I have been taking classes and got PCQI certified to hopefully be able to help my dad out. I have purchased the scheme... but here is the problem I for the life of me do not understand the lingo. Does everything need to be in one big book or manual? We cannot afford to pay a company to come out and do it for us.  We pass all of our state and FDA audits. Is there a step by step guide somewhere? Also, just any tips, research papers, templates. Seriously anything!  I have purchased multiple "implementation" books for hundreds and it goes over my head as far as how should I document and do all the documents need to be in one big book?

We are literally starting from the bottom and any help or advice is so appreciated. 

 

Also can I use an ATP surface test for our environmental program? I read a paper that it doesn't test for Salmonella and listeria which is what the customer is asking for, but we do send finished product to the lab to be tested, which I know is just a needle in a haystack but would the both of them together be good? We have never had a recall in our 12 years and we just need to know where to start with the process.

 

I have done a risk assessment and I will attach  so if it is wrong please tell me. Thank you so much for your time. 



alcgfernandes

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 02:27 PM

Dear Sydney,

First of all, which GFSI standard do you plan to implement?



sydneysmith544

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 02:30 PM

Dear Sydney,

First of all, which GFSI standard do you plan to implement?

 

We are doing the FSSC 2200 in the Dlli category. I have the iso 2200:2018 that goes with it as well.



alcgfernandes

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 02:45 PM

You also need ISO/TS 22002-1:2009, where you have the pre-requisites programmes (good manufacturing practices) that you have to implement.

You should start with the pre-requisites, and only then go to the ISO 22000 implementation.



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MDaleDDF

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 02:55 PM

Imho, starting from scratch with little to no knowledge of this, is going to be pretty daunting.   I don't want to dissuade your enthusiasm, but you're going to have quite a hill to climb with no help from a consultant.  Not that it can't be done, but whew, it's a lot to know.  Simply reading a book won't do it, you're going to need to get into an FSSC introductory class or something.  We're FSSC 22k, and I have been here since implementation and cannot imagine doing it from scratch without a consultant to at least help through some of the more difficult aspects.   And there are more than a few of those, but again, it depends on your product, process, facility, etc etc etc.

 

Something like this perhaps would be a good place to start:  

https://www.registra...ASAAEgLNC_D_BwE

Many of these questions are difficult if not impossible to answer without knowing more about your process, ingredients being used, etc etc.



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alcgfernandes

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 02:57 PM

Regarding your doubts:

"Does everything need to be in one big book or manual?" - No, is does not. You can have several documents. However, you need to have the documents mentioned as required in all FSSC standards (ISO 22000, ISO/TS and additional requirements).

"We cannot afford to pay a company to come out and do it for us." - You can do it internally, no problem. Maybe you can hire someone to perform an internal audit, to let you know what you still need to do.

"We pass all of our state and FDA audits." - Good, it means you have already good manufacturing practices developed. You just need to write them.

"Is there a step by step guide somewhere?" - FSSC has a ISO 22000 interpretation guide. Concerning ISO/TS I think it is simple to understand what should be done.

"Also, just any tips, research papers, templates." - You can try to do a research online for documents regarding that type of product production HACCP.

"We are literally starting from the bottom and any help or advice is so appreciated." - As mentioned earlier, you should start with ISO/TS which is the base.



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alcgfernandes

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 03:04 PM

"Also can I use an ATP surface test for our environmental program? I read a paper that it doesn't test for Salmonella and listeria which is what the customer is asking for, but we do send finished product to the lab to be tested, which I know is just a needle in a haystack but would the both of them together be good? We have never had a recall in our 12 years and we just need to know where to start with the process." - ATP is for determine the presence of protein, not a microbiology check. It only shows if the surface has, or not, product leftovers.



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alcgfernandes

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 03:05 PM

As MDaleDDF said, it will not be easy, but it can be done :)



MDaleDDF

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 03:08 PM

Actually, yes, you can and should do your food contact with atp, which we do here.   You never want to swab food contact surfaces for path.   Divide up your facility into four zones:

 

Zone 1 is food contact surfaces, always atp.   Zone 2 areas surrounding food contact areas, zone 3 is areas surrounding zone 2, zone 4 is outer areas like shipping, etc.   Path test quarterly zones 2-4.

 

I also test finished product quarterly, 1 raw ingredient against supplier spec sheet quarterly, and do air and water annually.

Your requirements may vary, again, we have little to no information on your facility.



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kingstudruler1

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 03:11 PM

1.  How did you "pass" a fda audit with out PCQI knowledge.   Do you have a preventive controls plan?

2.  It does not have to be in one specific book.   however, It much easier if it is.   

3   Yes you should have to do listeria and or salmonella swabbing / testing for a EMP program.  

 

I have never done complete FSSC from scratch just did parts for a friend.  I have done several SQF and BRC programs (starting with nothing).   Its not easy, but its doable.  lots of us here to help.     


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sydneysmith544

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 03:42 PM

Imho, starting from scratch with little to no knowledge of this, is going to be pretty daunting.   I don't want to dissuade your enthusiasm, but you're going to have quite a hill to climb with no help from a consultant.  Not that it can't be done, but whew, it's a lot to know.  Simply reading a book won't do it, you're going to need to get into an FSSC introductory class or something.  We're FSSC 22k, and I have been here since implementation and cannot imagine doing it from scratch without a consultant to at least help through some of the more difficult aspects.   And there are more than a few of those, but again, it depends on your product, process, facility, etc etc etc.

 

Something like this perhaps would be a good place to start:  

https://www.registra...ASAAEgLNC_D_BwE

Many of these questions are difficult if not impossible to answer without knowing more about your process, ingredients being used, etc etc.

 

 

This gives me hope! Thank you so much, it is a very long journey ahead. 

If it helps we use a variety of dry/wet ingredients ( i.e sunflower lecithin, flavored smoke, sweet potato flour, brown rice flour, cricket powder, cultured whey, and a frozen protein (chicken, beef, venison) to make the treats. They are mixed - Here they are PH tested while in the mixer we accept anything from 5.9 and below. Then they are extruded at 26 F on to screens to go into the ovens for over 10 hours. We just got a temp logger to verify our kill step which is 165F  or above internal for 30 mins. Then they go to cool under filtered air fans in a cooling area. they are then sent to the cutter and metal detection area. From there, they are sent to packaging in the customers preferred bag with their label. We do not sell these under our name but for the purpose of wholesale for treat companies. 


Edited by sydneysmith544, 22 March 2022 - 03:44 PM.


MDaleDDF

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 05:33 PM

So your process is outside my purview since it contains meat.  We only blend dry ingredients, and that adds a layer I'm not familiar with.   However, if you're having specific difficulties and want to see any of my documents, PM me and I'll help you in any way I can.  Just the HACCP and hazard analysis alone were enough to give me fits.   We've been certified for 10 years and still they manage to find weaknesses in my system to write up, so don't get discouraged.   In my experience as long as you're committed to the program and continual improvement, and I mean living it every day, not just pushing paper, the auditors can tell, and will not penalize you too harshly.   It's not in their best interest to hamstring you and hold you back, they want you to succeed as well.



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Spidey

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 05:34 PM

You can do this!  The thing that was the most helpful to me when I was doing this for my Dad's company (<10 employees), were SQF document templates I was able to purchase from Eurofins.  I would strongly recommend contacting them to see if they have any for FSSC 22000.

 

The templets were super helpful for me because they gave me a format for how to convey the information requested.  I have two sets of documents: internal SOPs/SSOPs and my SQF documents.  In my internal SOPs/SSOPs I give detailed instructions about all of our policies and procedures.  In my SQF documents, I reference the specific SOPs/SSOPs where I detail my compliance with the standard.



kingstudruler1

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 06:00 PM

You can do this!  The thing that was the most helpful to me when I was doing this for my Dad's company (<10 employees), were SQF document templates I was able to purchase from Eurofins.  I would strongly recommend contacting them to see if they have any for FSSC 22000.

 

The templets were super helpful for me because they gave me a format for how to convey the information requested.  I have two sets of documents: internal SOPs/SSOPs and my SQF documents.  In my internal SOPs/SSOPs I give detailed instructions about all of our policies and procedures.  In my SQF documents, I reference the specific SOPs/SSOPs where I detail my compliance with the standard.

 

IFSQN has them for FSSC.  At least that is what I think this is.  

 

https://www.ifsqn.co....1 Brochure.pdf


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Scampi

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Posted 22 March 2022 - 07:41 PM

I want to add something important here

 

I've seen multiple posts in this thread saying not to swab for pathogens on your enviro swabs

I couldn't DISAGREE MORE and depending when you are, it will not pass muster (e.g. regulatory requirements)

 

Now, that doesn't mean swab for l mono--but you SHOULD be swabbing for L species, same goes for salmonella

 

I caution everyone on avoiding pathogen swabbing-----I worked for a very large company, that could have prevented a massive recall IF swabbing had been path specific AND consistently reported


Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


Charles.C

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Posted 23 March 2022 - 02:07 AM

We are doing the FSSC 2200 in the Dlli category. I have the iso 2200:2018 that goes with it as well.

Hi Sydney,

 

Not sure what yr exact financial resources are but note that this site offers a complete package for this Standard (and others) including forms, Procedures etc and afaik personal Guidance from the designer. See this page for details-

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...tion-programmes

 

The video/free downloads will give you an idea as to the Scope of the Standard's requirements.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


MDaleDDF

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Posted 23 March 2022 - 02:31 PM

I want to add something important here

 

I've seen multiple posts in this thread saying not to swab for pathogens on your enviro swabs

I couldn't DISAGREE MORE and depending when you are, it will not pass muster (e.g. regulatory requirements)

 

Now, that doesn't mean swab for l mono--but you SHOULD be swabbing for L species, same goes for salmonella

 

I caution everyone on avoiding pathogen swabbing-----I worked for a very large company, that could have prevented a massive recall IF swabbing had been path specific AND consistently reported

For my post, I didn't say I don't path swab, only on food contact surfaces I ATP, and my other zones I run the full gamut of tests needed at my facility.   Large scale difference between that and "not to swab for pathogens on your enviro swabs".  I ATP food contact every Monday morning before we run, so auditors considered food surface swabbing redundant.  

I did USED to swab food contact surfaces, but after a decade of doing this, and discussions with multiple other TD's, auditors and IA's, this system was basically recommended to me by some real heavy hitters, whom I will not name drop here, but I can say I know for a fact this same approach is used by one of the largest beverage manufacturers, and many other companies.   After doing both, I certainly consider this the best system for my purposes, but again, everything depends on your process and inputs, so others needs may vary.

 

But to not have an enviro swabbing program at all?   No, I couldn't agree more, that won't fly, and isn't even possible under the standards....


Edited by MDaleDDF, 23 March 2022 - 02:31 PM.


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Scampi

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Posted 23 March 2022 - 03:40 PM

Pathogen swabbing is VERY product specific

 

Most beverages are acidified, this product in this thread is not---post bake, has a VERY high risk of being contaminated 


Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


MDaleDDF

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Posted 24 March 2022 - 02:02 PM

Pathogen swabbing is VERY product specific

Definitely.



Rick Reyes

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Posted 24 March 2022 - 04:40 PM

One thing that I would highly recommend is to start with a truly accurate process flow chart, from ingredient receiving to final shipment. Even if you think it is a small step you should initially include it because one of the biggest reasons for a food safety failure is having an unrecognized hazard in your process that could lead to real problems in the future, I know that some people strive for a simplified process flow chart but something as easy to overlook as a water spray could lead to a serious food safety issue.   





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