8 replies to this topic

[Cäsar]

Dear all,

to initially release a supplier I could use a questionnaire or a GFSI certificate. The questionnaire could be updated like every 2nd or 3rd year and approval could be extended. That is simple and clear.

 

My first question is:

- do I need to verify the GFSI certificates for IFS or is this just the case for BRC ? I do not see this requirement when I check the words written in IFS 7.

 

If I release a supplier based on a GFSi certificate, I need to keep this up to date. Means I need to check on the certificate if it is outdated or not.

If I release a supplier based on aquestionnaire IFS is fine with me checking again after 2 or 3 years.

 

Eventually this means, a certified supplier is more frequently checked than a supplier without certification - or do I mess someting up?

 

I would really love to discuss this topic based on the requirements of IFS!

 

Thank you very much and looking forward to read your opinions or experiences.

 

Regards

 

Cäsar

[JensV]

Hi Cäsar

 

A GFSI certificate gives you more supplier guarantees in terms of food safety- because this certificate is issued by a independent third party. 

 

This means indeed that you have to check regularly the validity of the certificate, no matter what GFSI standard it is (tip: there are online some tools to quickly check the validity of the GFSI certificate of the relevant supplier - for example IFS: by the COID; BRC: by the site code).

 

At our company, we strive to work only with GFSI certified parties but sometimes this is just not possible. Mostly these are very small suppliers who supply materials that are not critical for our processes (assessed through a raw material risk analysis). In these cases, when the supplier doesn't have a GFSI standard, we work with a questionnaire. But often it doesn't stop with a questionnaire, usually we then activate some additional control mechanisms (for example on site visit/audit, more frequent requesting of analysis results, ...).

 

In case a questionnaire is used, it isn't reviewed annually but at most every three years. But there is a clear statement on the questionnaire that significant changes in the production process at the supplier, technical data sheet, HACCP plan, ... needs to be addressed to us immediately. 

[olenazh]

Completely agree with JensV, we have the same system. To keep track of your suppliers' GFSI cert's you may want to create a chart - attached is a sample (what I'm using, I review all suppliers info and mark those expiring soon)

Attached Files

•  Suppliers_GFSI-LoG-Kosh-Hal-Org_SAMPLE.xls   29KB   111 downloads

[Tony-C]

Dear all,

to initially release a supplier I could use a questionnaire or a GFSI certificate. The questionnaire could be updated like every 2nd or 3rd year and approval could be extended. That is simple and clear.

 

My first question is:

- do I need to verify the GFSI certificates for IFS or is this just the case for BRC ? I do not see this requirement when I check the words written in IFS 7.

 

If I release a supplier based on a GFSi certificate, I need to keep this up to date. Means I need to check on the certificate if it is outdated or not.

If I release a supplier based on aquestionnaire IFS is fine with me checking again after 2 or 3 years.

 

Eventually this means, a certified supplier is more frequently checked than a supplier without certification - or do I mess someting up?

 

I would really love to discuss this topic based on the requirements of IFS!

 

Thank you very much and looking forward to read your opinions or experiences.

 

Regards

 

Cäsar

 

Hi Cäsar,

 

Welcome to the IFSQN forums

 

BRCGS is much more specific in this area. It is not an IFS 7 requirement to validate supplier FSMS certificates but for extra assurance I’m not sure why you wouldn’t?

 

Suppliers approved by questionnaire are normally only low risk.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

Completely agree with JensV, we have the same system. To keep track of your suppliers' GFSI cert's you may want to create a chart - attached is a sample (what I'm using, I review all suppliers info and mark those expiring soon)

 

Hi olenazh,

 

I like the idea, I think it wouldn't take much effort to add the certification scheme, certification body and scope of the certification.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

[Cäsar]

Hi Cäsar,

 

Welcome to the IFSQN forums

 

BRCGS is much more specific in this area. It is not an IFS 7 requirement to validate supplier FSMS certificates but for extra assurance I’m not sure why you wouldn’t?

 

Suppliers approved by questionnaire are normally only low risk.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

 

Hi olenazh,

 

I like the idea, I think it wouldn't take much effort to add the certification scheme, certification body and scope of the certification.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

Hi Tony,

thanks for your helpful reply!

 

It is not about what makes sense, what I consider useful or what we eventually do - but what is the requirement. I like to understand the requirement and then add up what we consider helpful.

 

The low risk classification is coming from BRC - the IFS does not say anything alike.

 

I do not see any extra assurance in verifying the certificates. We did that for years now and never had any counterfeits - did you have?

And it is a noteworthy effort, talking about more that 150 suppliers in my case.

 

What I really struggle with is that we all agree that for "low risk" suppliers/raw materials there is a questionnaire good enough. Even for 3 years.

But IF the same low risk supplier was certified we want to check them even more intense - meaning yearly.

 

WHY?

 

Kind regards

 

Cäsar

[Cäsar]

Hi Cäsar

 

A GFSI certificate gives you more supplier guarantees in terms of food safety- because this certificate is issued by a independent third party. 

 

This means indeed that you have to check regularly the validity of the certificate, no matter what GFSI standard it is (tip: there are online some tools to quickly check the validity of the GFSI certificate of the relevant supplier - for example IFS: by the COID; BRC: by the site code).

 

At our company, we strive to work only with GFSI certified parties but sometimes this is just not possible. Mostly these are very small suppliers who supply materials that are not critical for our processes (assessed through a raw material risk analysis). In these cases, when the supplier doesn't have a GFSI standard, we work with a questionnaire. But often it doesn't stop with a questionnaire, usually we then activate some additional control mechanisms (for example on site visit/audit, more frequent requesting of analysis results, ...).

 

In case a questionnaire is used, it isn't reviewed annually but at most every three years. But there is a clear statement on the questionnaire that significant changes in the production process at the supplier, technical data sheet, HACCP plan, ... needs to be addressed to us immediately. 

Hi Jens,

thank you for your explanations!

 

You say that I have to check the validity of certificates - the IFS does not even say that I need to check any certificate for suppliers. Where does your requirement come from?

 

Thank you for your input!

 

Regards

 

Cäsar

[JensV]

Hi Jens,

thank you for your explanations!

 

You say that I have to check the validity of certificates - the IFS does not even say that I need to check any certificate for suppliers. Where does your requirement come from?

 

Thank you for your input!

 

Regards

 

Cäsar

 

Hi Cäsar

 

No, the IFS doesn't say that you need to check any certificate for suppliers. But like Tony-C said, why you wouldn't use this as a assessment tool?

 

In IFS Food 7, 4.4.2 Supplier Approval states: 

The approval and monitoring procedure shall contain clear assessment criteria, such as: • audits performed by an experienced and competent person • certificates of analyses • supplier reliability • complaints • required performance standards.

 

So yes, you're free to decide how exactly you will fill in the assessment criteria, as long as you can justify this. For me the assessment criteria won't be the same for all suppliers (depending on raw material risk analysis). For the criteria "audits performed by an experienced and competent person", in my opinion a GFSI (or similar) certificate is the way to go if possible. 

 

No one says you have to check a questionnaire only each 3 years - if you judge that this should be more frequent, you're free to do this. But I think the filled in questionnaire will be practically the same as the year before - if you recheck it yearly. Here we just add a clear statement on the questionnaire that significant changes in the production process at the supplier, technical data sheet, HACCP plan, ... needs to be addressed to us immediately. This way we maintain the validity of the questionnaire during the three years.

[Tony-C]

Hi Tony,

thanks for your helpful reply!

 

It is not about what makes sense, what I consider useful or what we eventually do - but what is the requirement. I like to understand the requirement and then add up what we consider helpful.

 

The low risk classification is coming from BRC - the IFS does not say anything alike.

 

I do not see any extra assurance in verifying the certificates. We did that for years now and never had any counterfeits - did you have?

And it is a noteworthy effort, talking about more that 150 suppliers in my case.

 

What I really struggle with is that we all agree that for "low risk" suppliers/raw materials there is a questionnaire good enough. Even for 3 years.

But IF the same low risk supplier was certified we want to check them even more intense - meaning yearly.

 

WHY?

 

Kind regards

 

Cäsar

 

Hi Cäsar,

 

"It is not about what makes sense"   

 

Not sure where you are getting your frequencies from? IFS Food V7 4.4.3* The results from the supplier assessments shall be reviewed regularly and this review shall be justified by risk assessment.

 

Counterfeit certificate, yes, in Eastern Europe.

 

I didn't mention BRC or IFS, I said that Suppliers approved by questionnaire are normally only low risk. You may get away with assessing high risk suppliers by questionnaire for now but I don't see it continuing long term. There may be possible mitigating circumstances such as extensive testing before acceptance.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

[Cäsar]

Hi Cäsar,

 

"It is not about what makes sense"   

 

Not sure where you are getting your frequencies from? IFS Food V7 4.4.3* The results from the supplier assessments shall be reviewed regularly and this review shall be justified by risk assessment.

 

Counterfeit certificate, yes, in Eastern Europe.

 

I didn't mention BRC or IFS, I said that Suppliers approved by questionnaire are normally only low risk. You may get away with assessing high risk suppliers by questionnaire for now but I don't see it continuing long term. There may be possible mitigating circumstances such as extensive testing before acceptance.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

Hi Tony,

don't get me wrong - eventually it is all about what makes sense and especially helps for producing safe food!

 

But as I said, my intention was to discuss the requirement  - pretending you just want to fulfill the IFS Food  7 requirement, not more, not less.

 

Thank you all for your input!

 

Regards

 

Cäsar