9 replies to this topic

[olenazh]

From my experience, most of inquiries I've made to figure out a source of any natural flavor (sub-ingredient of fruit prep or Natural Flavor) ended up with the same statement from a supplier "Impossible to disclose as it's proprietary information". What do you think this is? Unwillingness to disclose such seemingly simple information - to me, it's quite a straight indication of hiding something. That's why I'm inclined to believe in those recent articles about "fake" natural sources of "natural flavors". Need your opinion guys.  

[Scampi]

It's because either to tell you that would probably also allow you to figure out HOW they extract it

 

When i was in cannabis, do you think for a minute we would tell our customers HOW we extracted the THC from the flower??? Not on your life   They were always given as vague an answer as possible

 

Why would they do that?          IMHO it's no different that being allowed to label finished goods with the single word "spices"  the blend is proprietary and they would lose sales if they told you exactly what spices

[pHruit]

In general I lean toward the "more transparency is better" side of things - when I worked for a company that did a lot of trading/brokerage type supplies, I often ended up arguing with the commercial team in favour of disclosing all the info customers wanted.

 

However in this case I do have sympathy with the flavour houses. Some formulations are genuinely very complex (potentially 100+ components) and there is therefore a legitimate argument that this is intellectual property that has required cost to develop and is one of the primary assets of the business.

 

Other flavour houses of a decent standard should be capable of creating a reasonable match through a combination of skill and analysis, but but you don't want to make that any easier for them.

For example, if you buy from flavour house A and decide you'd maybe like to look at working with flavour house B instead because they tell you they can give you the same product at a better price, that is much more risky for flavour house A if the full formulation is known - that info if passed across to flavour house B will make it relatively simple for them to get a ballpark match to then refine, rather than having to start from the ground up.

 

You might like to have a look at section 6 of the International Organisation of the Flavor (sic) Industry's Code of Practice document: https://cdn2.assets-...th-revision.pdf

[MDaleDDF]

For many of our formulations the flavors were made especially for us, are indeed proprietary information, and I will not give much information about them out to customers either.   I will give a range formula, that's pretty much it.   Too many customers via their questions have made clear to me over the years, they're trying to get a bill of materials on their product so they can shop it elsewhere and try and get it cheaper..  so no go.

[Alex V.]

I worked in food flavors for 3 years and this is what I encountered as well.  For us we were simply an R&D lab and had no manufacturing capability to speak of so our formulas were everything.  All of our product was contract manufactured and we had a very tight understanding with our CM.  

 

Consider that most flavoring formulas are not patented as the process is costly and public to some degree so all someone needs to do to get around a patent is to tweak the formula slightly.  Protecting those formulas is of the utmost importance.  Of course if the customer represents big enough business and has enough weight to throw around its better to give them what they want.

 

The law (in the USA) is that the only thing that has to go on your label are the words "natural flavors" at the concentrations you would use a flavoring agent at and so most developers will decline to elaborate on the specific formula or origin of those chemicals as no customer truly needs it(exceptions apply).

 

Now regarding the "fake natural", I'm of the opinion that most domestic sources are not going to try to deceive you with their understanding of the status of the product.  However when developing our Food Fraud program we found it nearly impossible to determine the naturalness of flavoring chemicals as the difference between natural and conventional is generally their origin. Simply the isolation of a chemical from a natural source vs a chemical reaction is not enough to establish a distinguishable difference.  Thus once they are produced they are nearly identical to conventional and indistinguishable without extremely expensive analytical testing.  

[olenazh]

I worked in food flavors for 3 years and this is what I encountered as well.  For us we were simply an R&D lab and had no manufacturing capability to speak of so our formulas were everything.  All of our product was contract manufactured and we had a very tight understanding with our CM.  

 

Consider that most flavoring formulas are not patented as the process is costly and public to some degree so all someone needs to do to get around a patent is to tweak the formula slightly.  Protecting those formulas is of the utmost importance.  Of course if the customer represents big enough business and has enough weight to throw around its better to give them what they want.

 

The law (in the USA) is that the only thing that has to go on your label are the words "natural flavors" at the concentrations you would use a flavoring agent at and so most developers will decline to elaborate on the specific formula or origin of those chemicals as no customer truly needs it(exceptions apply).

 

Now regarding the "fake natural", I'm of the opinion that most domestic sources are not going to try to deceive you with their understanding of the status of the product.  However when developing our Food Fraud program we found it nearly impossible to determine the naturalness of flavoring chemicals as the difference between natural and conventional is generally their origin. Simply the isolation of a chemical from a natural source vs a chemical reaction is not enough to establish a distinguishable difference.  Thus once they are produced they are nearly identical to conventional and indistinguishable without extremely expensive analytical testing.  

Thanks a lot Alex, it was extremely helpful to understand a process of making natural flavors! I've always been aware that a word "natural" relates to a really natural products, like for instance, fruit/vegetable juices or such. If it's a chemical, isolated from a natural source, it would relate to "chemical" to me. Now, I'm just wondering if you might know what plant source would be for sour cream "natural flavour"? Just out of curiosity, one of our Coconut Sour Cream ingredients is Natural Flavor, Non-dairy, and one if its sub-ingredients is a natural flavour, sourced from a plant. If you could shed light on it for me, please.

[Alex V.]

Really hard to guess, as mentioned above the flavors could have upwards of 100 different chemicals in it.   It could simply be coconut oil which carries many chemicals, or it could be delta-decalactone, which is isolated from numerous different sources and imparts a "Coconut, creamy, fatty, buttery, milky and nutty with a slightly fruity nuance" flavor/odor and is also found in coconut/coconut oil and it is available from various suppliers in its "natural" form.

 

I recommend familiarizing yourself with the definition of "natural flavor" in the CFR for further understanding of this topic as some of it is unintuitive but makes sense from the perspective of an industry that creates non-nutritive elements of food used at extremely low levels. https://www.accessda....cfm?fr=101.22 

[kingstudruler1]

You are correct, you will most likely never get the information that you are looking for.  However, I don't think that they are "hiding something shady".   as others have stated it is propreitary information.   They are very secretive.    In some cases, the company does not own the formula, but it is property of the flavor chemist that developed it.   

 

they are definitely one of the more frustrating segments of the industry to work with for food safety personnel.  

 

 

at least in the USA the flavor companies have had very successful lobbyists - the section below is from 21 cfr 101.22

 

(v) Review of flavor ingredient records shall be limited to the qualitative formula and shall not include the quantitative formula. The person verifying the certifications may make only such notes as are necessary to enable him to verify such certification. Only such notes or such flavor ingredient records as are necessary to verify such certification or to show a potential or actual violation may be removed or transmitted from the certifying party's place of business: Provided, That, where such removal or transmittal is necessary for such purposes the relevant records and notes shall be retained as separate documents in Food and Drug Administration files, shall not be copied in other reports, and shall not be disclosed publicly other than in a judicial proceeding brought pursuant to the act or 18 U.S.C. 1001.

[olenazh]

You are correct, you will most likely never get the information that you are looking for.  However, I don't think that they are "hiding something shady".   as others have stated it is propreitary information.   They are very secretive.    In some cases, the company does not own the formula, but it is property of the flavor chemist that developed it.   

 

they are definitely one of the more frustrating segments of the industry to work with for food safety personnel.  

 

 

at least in the USA the flavor companies have had very successful lobbyists - the section below is from 21 cfr 101.22

 

(v) Review of flavor ingredient records shall be limited to the qualitative formula and shall not include the quantitative formula. The person verifying the certifications may make only such notes as are necessary to enable him to verify such certification. Only such notes or such flavor ingredient records as are necessary to verify such certification or to show a potential or actual violation may be removed or transmitted from the certifying party's place of business: Provided, That, where such removal or transmittal is necessary for such purposes the relevant records and notes shall be retained as separate documents in Food and Drug Administration files, shall not be copied in other reports, and shall not be disclosed publicly other than in a judicial proceeding brought pursuant to the act or 18 U.S.C. 1001.

I recall, I had a request from Loblaw to verify a term "Natural flavor" for the ingredient of one of the products we make for them. And guess what? After back/forth months-long communications with the supplier - Loblaw's given up! So, I can say the lobby is worldwide. 

[mlong32]

Request a copy of their Flavor Ingredient Data Sheet (FIDS). Flavor producers are mandated by the TTB to keep these and have them readily available upon request although there are still ways around not disclosing proprietary information. 

 

https://www.ttb.gov/...pounded flavors.