13 replies to this topic

[GMO]

Mulling over a former employer recently.

 

I went into a company where there were huge people issues with competence. Equipment had been purchased which wasn't fit for purpose. There had been out and out lies on some of the things external auditors had been told.

 

I came in, was told to sort it all out. Did so as best I could but every senior leadership meeting it was my budget squeezed when nobody else's was. As a Technical person it was clear that my work was seen as less valuable. I was being told to:

• Do more
• Fix others' mistakes
• Find ways to make poor design work
• Fix competence
• Introduce two new customers
• And do it all with less resource

And you know what? I almost did it but it almost killed me.

 

Until the most senior leaders of organisations "get it" that you cannot expect gold standards on peanuts, at best you'll get "we made it through the audit, somehow" then food safety will not improve.

 

At the time, I walked away, blaming myself. Now I look back and see nobody could have achieved what was being asked and if that was the first time in my career I'd felt like that, I'd be much less p-ed off about it.

 

It always feels like those who are survivors at a senior level in UK technical, those who move into group roles and TD roles, are just better politicians. Often people who are good at presenting a front to the customer but who often don't really want to know what's really going on. I cannot think of anyone in a really senior technical role in the UK who is actually making food safer. I can think of a lot of in plant Technical people who are desperately trying. 

 

And that's where I think the whole culture discussion is currently pitching wrong. Yep it's about shop floor behaviours ultimately but who is looking at the pressure Technical leaders are under? And to that point, operational leaders too. People are drowning at least in the UK food industry. I'm now seeing very high churn in Technical leaders at a plant level. 1-2 year retention is common nowadays but I'm working with plants with less than that and multiple open roles.

 

I'm starting to question with the way the world is going, the constant pressure on costs from on high when everything is just getting harder... is this job even doable?

[MDaleDDF]

This has not at all been my experience in the field.   If it had been, I would have quit long ago and moved into a different field.

[GMO]

This has not at all been my experience in the field.   If it had been, I would have quit long ago and moved into a different field.

 

Really glad that's the case. Is it just the UK then?

[TimG]

Really glad that's the case. Is it just the UK then?

 

No, we have quite a few bad actors here stateside. Getting in a decent location where the owner cares about FS/Q is not easy, and it's also not always apparent from interviews.

I sat at one job interview and watched the plant manager have people come in and 'sign off' on training (SQF facility!!). I thought 'ok, maybe they went to the training but didn't get a chance to sign'. One of the guys said "what's this about now?" "That's the video we showed a few years ago, nothing's changed since then just sign it"... 

I was there for a H/S compliance manager position. I told him I was the SQF Practitioner at previous locations and started asking him more questions about the training people were signing. He gave me that 'you don't really believe all this garbage' look. Yeah, this isn't going to be a great fit...

[MDaleDDF]

I know it's not universal, but it feels to me in general terms that privately owned companies are more supportive than corporate entities?    I understand there's bad privately owned places, and really good corporate owned entities as well,    But for me, if there's an issue, I answer to the owner, no BS in between myself and him, and his #1 goal is to never make anyone sick or hurt anyone, so he's 100% supportive.   He's not afraid to spend when needed to make sure that happens, etc.   Am I super lucky?

[AlwaysMyFirstDay]

I am notably less seasoned than you are, GMO. Metrics for success in the roles I've had here in the United States (supplements, cosmetics, food) I would describe as generous. The similarity to your experiences start and end with how production approaches the technical side of the work.

 

In my case(s), the biggest friction comes from production teams thinking throwing more of my department's labor into a given problem produces more/better/faster results.

 

They're used to being able to solve issues or inefficiencies or competency by hiring a few more temporary hires during busy periods, so they assume the same of my team.

 

The nature of our work does heavily depend on the company's wallet being open, this is true. I've had my fair share of experiences that were some version of:

"This is too expensive"

"I can perform this work if you buy me this equipment"

"How much?"

"Upfront, 4-5 times the usual cost you're approving now. Afterwards, around half the cost."

"...nah."

I may have written this before, but we pick and choose our battles in our line of work.

 

The clearly risky ones with regard to food safety are the ones I hope no one ever has to push back on, and I've read enough of your posts to know you've had that battle quite a lot. It's a shame.

[Scampi]

I've been lucky by comparison, but almost all of my experience has been in heavily regulated industries.........so if I generously expand on my rationale, having a regulator tell you what must be done in order to retain your license = next to no pushback---the only assumption I can make is private industry will always try and skirt the issues unless someone with more power tells them otherwise

 

Food recalls would speak to the same----recalls in Canada are almost exclusively from food manufacturers that until recently, were never audited by a regulator with big teeth

[G M]

... I was being told to:

• Do more
• Fix others' mistakes
• Find ways to make poor design work
• Fix competence
• Introduce two new customers
• And do it all with less resource

And you know what? I almost did it but it almost killed me.

 

...

 

I'm starting to question with the way the world is going, the constant pressure on costs from on high when everything is just getting harder... is this job even doable?

 

I would say its cultural, but not just 'food safety culture'.  I was thinking of something similar in equipment the other day, and the gulf that exists in quality between different instruments based on where they were manufactured.  The US and UK have very similar cultures and values, for fairly obvious reasons, and we see the same "lip service" kind of value placed on quality and safety when they get balanced against production and economic concerns.

 

Compare that to Japan for example where the philosophy of doing your best is genuinely highly regarded and widely accepted as a virtue, not just a means to an end, and the kind of cultural shame associated with low quality is quite different. There's a good reason numerous quality systems and techniques have originated from a culture where compromising quality in exchange for short term benefits is evaluated more broadly in a very different way.

 

We're not the worst though, there are definitely other cultures that barely place any value on safety or quality, and the systems and audits are certainly just window dressing.  Getting caught doing it will probably get you killed there too.

 

 

Changing or controlling values on this kind of level is a bit more achievable in smaller private companies where the owners family name is on the product, but its no guarantee either. Corporate decision making has in recent decades been much more short term focussed and willing to compromise ethics for money.  Without different broad cultural (and legal) expectations for accountability, this is unlikely to change for the better.

[LostInTheWoods]

I would say its cultural, but not just 'food safety culture'.  I was thinking of something similar in equipment the other day, and the gulf that exists in quality between different instruments based on where they were manufactured.  The US and UK have very similar cultures and values, for fairly obvious reasons, and we see the same "lip service" kind of value placed on quality and safety when they get balanced against production and economic concerns.

 

Compare that to Japan for example where the philosophy of doing your best is genuinely highly regarded and widely accepted as a virtue, not just a means to an end, and the kind of cultural shame associated with low quality is quite different. There's a good reason numerous quality systems and techniques have originated from a culture where compromising quality in exchange for short term benefits is evaluated more broadly in a very different way.

 

We're not the worst though, there are definitely other cultures that barely place any value on safety or quality, and the systems and audits are certainly just window dressing.  Getting caught doing it will probably get you killed there too.

 

 

Changing or controlling values on this kind of level is a bit more achievable in smaller private companies where the owners family name is on the product, but its no guarantee either. Corporate decision making has in recent decades been much more short term focussed and willing to compromise ethics for money.  Without different broad cultural (and legal) expectations for accountability, this is unlikely to change for the better.

 

I would agree with that, but I believe it's company culture around both Food Safety and Quality. I've spend a good portion of my career in automotive quality, some in other manufacturing quality, and about 4 years in Food Safety/Quality. The best companies value it. I don't believe that national origin is deterministic of quality. I had a Mexican spring supplier that was light years ahead in terms of Quality when compared with the Detroit company our execs chose to replace them.

 

But, part of your job, regardless of Quality or Food Safety (or Engineering, or Operations) is being able to sell your ideas to the executive level. Having a receptive audience at the executive level helps, but it also means that your predecessors were good at selling similar ideas.

Edited by LostInTheWoods, 11 May 2026 - 08:14 PM.

[Tony-C]

 I found your post to be quite sad GMO, there may be some bad actors in the UK food industry but generally organisations I have worked with have been pretty good. There have been sites where big improvements were required with minimal additional resource but I did find senior managers co-operative and contributed to improving the site. Some of the better organisations also had employee schemes where bonuses were paid based on KPIs and all employees had share options. Maybe this helped create a desire for the site/organisation to be successful.

 

Maybe I have been lucky and you have been unlucky, who knows? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

[GMO]

Not sure if you've worked directly in them Tony or supporting them? The ability for British sites particularly to present a "best face" to others is astonishing IME and growing. A friend says to me who works internationally that it's almost a cottage industry in the UK and he's always lead around in UK sites to show what they want to show far more than elsewhere.

The same happens in the boardrooms with resource and even funding to fix plants. If funding doesn't have a return it's not just "hard" now, it doesn't happen. I'm seeing increasing technical leaders getting sustainability as an additional requirement without additional resource. Most MDs and plant leaders have no Technical expertise in the UK. I've even heard of customers writing it into contracts that long standing issues are fixed. That's not saying leaders care.

 

RQA were talking about a talent crisis 2 years ago: Technical & Quality Talent Crisis: Overcoming Challenges in the UK Food Manufacturing Industry - RQA Group

 

I think it's got worse. A lot my age group are retiring early. And that doesn't just impact pipeline but I'm seeing people getting senior technical roles now who are out of their depth too and unprepared to stand up to leaders who walk all over them.

 

Perhaps it is just my experience but I'm still seeing it, I'm seeing "compliant to a standard" at best (i.e. mostly compliant on paper) and not seeing the alternative very often. The only exception I've seen recently were two very small family owned businesses. But that said, they're not immune. I have another story I cannot share from longer ago where a family business knowingly sent out dangerous product.

[Tony-C]

Not sure if you've worked directly in them Tony or supporting them? 

 

That is why I find a lot of your posts annoying, you post like you are the only representative from the UK food industry here. I’ve no idea why think there is no one else with experience in the UK on this website?

 

I spent the best part of 20 years working in the UK earlier in my career. This was through the period from the initial Retailer COPs and the Technical Standard to the BRC Standard developed by the British Retail Consortium (now BRCGS) in 1998, which was the pioneering standard for the Global Food Safety Initiative. I lived and worked through it all in the UK and survived what was a tenuous period for the industry and everyone involved in it.

 

I have been advised that there is a potential opportunity in West Wales that might be up your street with a salary of up to 75k plus benefits. PM me if you are interested, and BTW I’m not looking for a commission, just trying to be helpful.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

[GMO]

That is why I find a lot of your posts annoying, you post like you are the only representative from the UK food industry here. I’ve no idea why think there is no one else with experience in the UK on this website?

 

I spent the best part of 20 years working in the UK earlier in my career. This was through the period from the initial Retailer COPs and the Technical Standard to the BRC Standard developed by the British Retail Consortium (now BRCGS) in 1998, which was the pioneering standard for the Global Food Safety Initiative. I lived and worked through it all in the UK and survived what was a tenuous period for the industry and everyone involved in it.

 

I've never claimed to be the only person from the UK on here.

 

But I've worked across the UK food industry for a long long time and am seeing some awful senior leader behaviours which are worsening if anything. Just as requirements go up including the breadth of the role increasing. Back when I started in the food industry it was a much smaller standard, no TACCP, VACCP, no sustainability. My point being Technical people get increased workloads and get stuck in the middle.

 

There's a lot of people on here who don't specify where they're based on here, including you, even though there's the feature to do so. So I don't assume and explain instead. I work with a lot of global team members in different organisations so I'm constantly explaining. I'm sorry if that's annoying to you in any way. It's not my intent.

I'm surprised you want to share a role with me if that's your view?

 

Oh well perhaps it's my annoying nature that just rubs up people the wrong way. I guess I'll just take that as feedback for today. 

[Tony-C]

I'm surprised you want to share a role with me if that's your view?

 

A couple of reasons come to mind GMO:

 

We can all be annoying sometimes, even me 

 

Based on your posts on the forum, I would think you are more than capable of doing the job. It boils down to if it is somewhere where you would be happy to live.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony