12 replies to this topic

[Jim Wade]

BSI (British Standards Institution) now offers us the chance to seek an ISO 9004 certificate to sit in the lobby beside ISO 9001.

Read more at http://emea.bsi-global.com/bpir

What do people thnk about this?

rgds Jim

[Simon]

It's the first I've heard of it.

How will this work?

If you already hold ISO 9001 certification and you decided to go for ISO 9004, would a seperate assessment be required or would it still be just one audit against ISO 9004? If you met the requirements of ISO 9004 you would automatically meet the requirements of ISO 9001. Would you maintain both certificates?

If one audit is the case and i'ts no more cost or only a small increase in cost then I'm sure a lot of companies would consider it, I probably would - continuous improvement / marketing edge.

I'm always a bit dubious though, they are already looking for the next buck for when the ISO 9001 changeover tails off. Why didn't they make ISO 9004 - ISO 9001 when they had the chance? or is that to come?


Regards,
Simon

[Jim Wade]

Simon, you ask "how will this work?

I know no more than BSI itself reports.

I'd like to think that an ISO 9004 certificate would be more meaningful than the 9001 version (which, now more than ever, has no relation at all to the 'quality' of the possessing organisation and which can even be gained without meeting some significant requirements).

Your "looking for the next buck" remark resonates with me.

ISO 9004 - like 9001 - has LOTS of great stuff in it. Certification is just irrelevant noise (except where possessiom of the badge opens doors to business, of course)

rgds Jim

[Simon]

Jim,

Having read a couple of your articles I know you have a strong background in Management Systems such as ISO 9000.

http://www.saferpak.com/isoaward.htm

Your negative attitude towards the implementation of the standard ("certification is just irrelevant noise") is obviously borne out of experience - what in your view are the main factors/causes of this malaise? More importantly what could have been done to prevent it? and what can be done to correct it? - or is it too late?

Shouldn't we ignore the crossfire of "the ISO 9000 Wild West side-show" and concentrate on helping our own organisations to become World Class?

Best Regards,
Simon

[Jim Wade]

What in your view are the main factors/causes of this malaise?

One main factor is the sad truth that the ISO 9000 machine (trainers, auditors, certificaton bodies, accreditation bodies, 'quality managers', 'consultants' and so on) focuses almost entirely on the 12 pages that contain the requirements and ignores the rest of the almost 100 pages that comprise the 'standards'.


More importantly what could have been done to prevent it? and what can be done to correct it? - or is it too late?

Having recognised that certification is a charade and that ISO 9001 - at least in practice - is NOT a standard, I think all each of us can do is, as you say, to "concentrate on helping our own organisations to become World Class?. Well - at least better! :)

rgds Jim

[Simon]

Yes - better!

Regards,
Simon

[Simon]

BSI (British Standards Institution) now offers us the chance to seek an ISO 9004 certificate to sit in the lobby beside ISO 9001.

Read more at http://emea.bsi-global.com/bpir

What do people thnk about this?

rgds  Jim

The above link is broken and I cannot find anything on the BSI website referring to the Business Performance Improvement Review (BPIR) - maybe they've given up on it.

Regards,
Simon

[Jim Wade]

I can't explain that, Simon, but I will try to find out and report back. Meanwhile. I attach a description of BSI's [now defunct?] product.

A few weeks ago I told my contacts at BSI about this competitive product from SGS.

I wonder if there's any connection between that and the apparent withdrawal?

Another factor may be BSI's introduction of BSI Benchmark - maybe they had a clash of their own products?

rgds Jim

Attached Files

•  BSI_9004_review.pdf   62.19KB   49 downloads

Edited by Jim Wade, 11 July 2004 - 09:23 AM.

[Simon]

It will be interesting to find out if and why they pulled the plug. I look forward to hearing your report.

Regards,
Simon

[Jim Wade]

My BSI contacts confirm that the BPIR product has been withdrawn and superseded by BSI BenchMark.

rgds Jim

[Simon]

My BSI contacts confirm that the BPIR product has been withdrawn and superseded by BSI BenchMark.

Thanks for confirming that Jim.

From BSI BenchMark web site

BSI BenchMark Features and Benefits

Improvement using a unique BSI approach
Key strengths and key themes for improvement across your organisation will be identified through the unique methodology of BSI BenchMark.

Benchmarking tool
We will award you with a progress score. Using our web-based tool, your scores can be used to benchmark your organisation with others in the same industry, region and even members of your supply chain.

Practical Business Progress
A detailed report will provide your organisation with increased transparency and present opportunities for you to prioritise areas for progression and improvement.

BSI BenchMark Certificate
On successful completion and verification of the review, we will reward you with a BSI BenchMark Certificate. This certificate will provide recognition that your organisation is working towards business excellence and serves to reinforce your organisation's status as a progressive enterprise.

###

Uses a scoring system eh? So how do you feel about BSI Benchmark Jim? Is it another money making initiative to fill the void between ISO 9000 revisions? Or a potentially useful improvement tool?

Regards,
Simon

[Jim Wade]

Uses a scoring system eh?  So how do you feel about BSI Benchmark Jim?  Is it another money making initiative to fill the void between ISO 9000 revisions?  Or a potentially useful improvement tool?

I'll reserve judgement until I learn more, Simon.

But, in principle, any move away from, or beyond, ISO 9001 pass/fail certification is good news - BSI's Benchmark approach grades an organisation (bronze through platinum).

I like the approach of basing the evaluation on the management principles behind ISO 9000.

Finally, I have heard first hand of very good reactions from one of the companies that have trialled the approach.

So - promising!

rgds Jim

[Simon]

But, in principle, any move away from, or beyond, ISO 9001 pass/fail certification is good news - BSI's Benchmark approach grades an organisation (bronze through platinum).

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Topical! Thanks Jim.

Regards,
Simon