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Yerac

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 11:02 PM

Hi everyone
I joined the forum because I am working on a feature article for Quality Digest magazine about ISO 22000. Specifically, I'd like to hear from people working at companies that are in the process of implementing the standard or who have already been certified to the standard. I would also be interested in hearing from anyone who was involved in developing the standard or who works as an auditor, either in-house or for for a certified registration body.
Specifically, I'd like to collect some first hand quotes from people with direct experience of how implementing OSO 22000 improved [or for that matter, failed to improve] the quality of their food safety programs, from either a practical operating point of view or a marketing point of view.
Thanks very much,
Carey Wilson
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www.qualitydigest.com



moo73steve

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 10:14 PM

Carey, Here is a Snipet from an internal newsletter here at Snap Fresh QANTAS.

---------------------------------------------------------------
"Some improvements noted as part of the preparation for ISO 22000 implementation include developing a Set Risk Assessment matrix to calculate the review frequency with suppliers and customers and the use of an agreed agenda template. This ensures a well defined and clearly communicated expectation of all Suppliers and of Snap Fresh for its customers as well as documented opportunities to pass on food safety knowledge to help improve food safety throughout the entire supply chain. The ISO 22000 audit process has covered areas of the business not previously included in the HACCP level audits such as the on site laboratory Snap Fresh operates for the large number of microbiological tests run on each and every batch of finished product."
---------------------------------------------------------------

We acheived certification in August 2007.

ISO 22000 certification covers almost every aspect of our business as food safety can be incorporated into most processes however the main change of focus for us was to increase the level of formal communication, with set agendas and matrices for calculating the frequency of meetings with suppliers and customers.

I hope that this may be of some assistance to you.

Thanks Steve



Charles.C

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 03:45 AM

Dear Steve,

Interesting input, thank you.

I noticed -

the large number of microbiological tests run on each and every batch of finished product


So much for HACCP, *sighh*, I suspect this is not an unusual result in practice.

Regards / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 04:39 AM

ISO 22000
Good Morning and Welcome to IFSQN forum,

Major issues on creating a international food standard steem from the fact that ISO 22000 is an auditable standard, as such, it provides a framework that ensures consistency of procedures throughout the food chain regardless the auditee and auditor is based in the US, UK, Australia, Singapore, Macao SAR, Hong Kong, Dubai or Germany. As such, it aims at being a global standard in all sense of the words as food businesses are nowadays global. In addition, its structure is compatible with ISO 9000 and ISO 14000 and it became easier to demonstrate compliance towards ISO 22000. ISO 22000 promulgates the food chain approach. As the Beatles once said: "We are all the the yellow submarine". What happens in country A may influence people in country B (thousands of miles in distance).

If we look back some decades ago the lack of standardization in manufacturing certification was outstanding. Again, ISO 9000 provided the framework creating a consistent way to ensure compliance to this management standard wherever you are. Later, it provided the same to service providers. Notwithstanding, it took time for food companies to understand the advantages of ISO 9000 to their business as it was perceived as not specifically designed for food manufacturing operations. This sense of specificity may be related to the regulation burden (specificity) food manufacturer’s face since the eighteen century. In someway, regulations detail sampling procedures for certain food items.

ISO 15161 provided guidelines for early adopters of ISO 9000 standard in order to consistently implement ISO 9000 to food operations. However, certain areas needed improvement and would justify the existence of an International Standard. John Surak, PhD., a renowned academic ,wrote an article on 2003 before entering the team (technical committee 34) that lead the process of designing the standard (refer to attachments).

ISO 22000 is now complemented by a set of standards and was amended in 2006, see link below:
http://www.iso.org/i...ck_food_toc.pdf (click for details).

Involving Codex representatives as well as other international renowed entities was a strategic move to back up the credibility of the standard internationally by opposition to existing Food Safety Standards either National or developed by trade (hence aimed at being international).
What else needs to be considered at this time? In my humble opinion create the ISO 22000 fundamentals and vocabulary for ISO 22000 the same way it was developed for ISO 9000 (fundamentals and vocabulary) this would ease the burden of interpretation of some food safety keywords already discussed in this forum.

Jose Ferreira Pinto

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Simon

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 03:35 PM

BUMP - surely we have more comments from users and dealers of ISO 22000. :unsure:


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Yerac

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:33 PM

Thanks very much to all participants in this forum. If you know others working with ISO 22000 please encourage them to post their comments. Specific details of how implementing the standard improved operations or quality at your organization would be most appreciated. Specific problems that were recognized, faced, and overcome during ISO 22000 implementation would also be quite useful. Quality Digest is a trade publication goes out to about 75,000 quality assurance professionals and executives, and is also available online at www.qualitydigest.com. Any input gained from this discussion will be fully credited as to personal source the IFSQN forum.
Thanks again, and keep those posts coming,
Carey Wilson
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Quality Digest
cwilson@qualitydigest.com



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Posted 08 January 2008 - 06:33 PM

Hi Readers,

I worked with a consultancy service company and implmented FSMS Complying to the requirement of ISO 2000:2005 for a couple of industries and one was the first in middle east. From my experiance it has an addedd advantage over other FSMS as the requirements are clearly mentioned and more priority for managment commitment, coomunication (both internal and eternal), Emergency prepardness, and risk assessment of hazards are clearly specified as a requirement. This will help the organization to really manage the safet of the food till it reaches the consumer. There is also requirement for data analysis with respect to verification and validation results and continual improvement of the system whihc will help the organization to update their PRP's, OPRP's and HACCP Plan. Al the control points are managed through this sytem compared to only critical control points managed in HACCP. As a wholt this is a complete system for any food establishment to ensure the safety of the food till it reaches the consumer rather than the customer.

Hope this information is useful.

Siraj Ismail
For more information contact me at sirajki@yahoo.co.uk



Charles.C

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 05:28 AM

Dear Siraj,

It's great to get yr input however I do think one of yr comments is rather questionable -

All the control points are managed through this sytem compared to only critical control points managed in HACCP.


I appreciate that some classifiers seem to not regard the traditional HACCP "Prequisite" functions as control points but this seems unreasonable IMHO. Or perhaps you were referring to the (mystical) oPRPs ?

Apologies for off-topic and reverting to the QD post, I am personally interested in seeing some input from auditors as to the effect on their business of ISO22k. One gets the impression from this forum that the answer for UK would be "negligible" and for France "significant". Only impressions, no hard data. :welcome:

Best Regards / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Charles Chew

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 06:27 AM

Al the control points are managed through this sytem compared to only critical control points managed in HACCP. As a wholt this is a complete system for any food establishment to ensure the safety of the food till it reaches the consumer rather than the customer.


Sorry for the divergence from the core subject but I felt the need to address this interesting remark made by Siraj. Under the Codex HACCP, the control points exist in the form of pre-requisite programs, SOPs, SSOPs and of course the CCPs. The differences compared to requirements outlined in the ISO 22K standard are a need to perform i.e. System Validation, Communication etc. SO really, IMO, in terms of controls (including the need to address regulatory requirements), Codex HACCP and ISO 22000 are pretty much on the same principles while the main difference is in the depth of documentation; implementation and overall system review relative to specific FSO, performance objectives, the criterion and review outputs.

As for my "representative" input to Quality Digest, ISO 22K Certification appears to have taken businesses to market segments (countries & regions) that previously had difficulties in entering. This is because ISO 22K Certification has enabled the organization to be in a position to comply with requirements of other specific standards such as BRC, IFS etc.

However, efforts in Food Exhibitions remain an integral part of the "show case" program BEFORE business interests started to trickle in. And then, we have the "Supplier Audit" to deal with. Often if products are exported to UK, 2nd Party Auditors (With BRC Background) would rampage your facility to look for non-conformities. USA appears to be more interested in Bio-Security and is pretty relax except for the "big boys"

IMO, an ISO 22000 Certification (like any other certifications) amounts to just a piece of paper hung on the wall if it wasn't done thoroughly and audited by an experienced Food Auditor who fully understands the requirements of the ISO 22000 International Standard.

Regards
Charles Chew

Edited by Charles Chew, 09 January 2008 - 11:40 AM.

Cheers,
Charles Chew
www.naturalmajor.com

Penard

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 12:28 PM

Hello Yerac,

You can try to send a mail to Afnor - a efficient public french agency, they currently work to implement ISO 22K in western France -Brittany- where most of french foods industries are located. So there are some factories on the one hand which are involved and on the other hand which could be interested in 22K.

http://www.afnor.org...00_bretagne.htm

GENERALE@FORUM.AFAQ.AFNOR.ORG

That's just a proposal, perhaps you will have some interesting experiences from this website, perhaps they won't agree to give you adresses and phone numbers of the factories. However I think it could be interesting for both of you to talk about it - and to inform Afnor's efforts by your study.

Another link, you can ask the Mapaq - Québec, Canada some questions. Try to contact Christine Dupuis.

Last, I know a little agency in Montréal http://blog.docaction.com, maybe they could be able to inform you about some canadian factories which have implemented 22K.

Please keep me - and us! - informed about your investigation,

Good luck!

Best regards,

Emmanuel.



Mahmood Reza

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 04:24 AM

Hi dear friends
I work more than 9 years with Codex HACCP and 2 years ISO22000 as a consultant for application of these systems in more than 100 plants.
I think working with codex HACCP is very easier than ISO22000 ,specially for SMEs and one of must pupular problem in these plants is high amount of documents in ISO22000 that this results is not focusing in food safety .
It is better for ISO22000 that will be simplified and more focus to food safety rather than management system.
Thanks
Mahmood



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Posted 14 January 2008 - 09:44 AM

New week so another new BUMP for this thread.

Anyone willing to share ISO 22000 experience (see top of thread)? :thumbup:


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downtown

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 11:06 PM

Hello,
Let me first mention following threads contain very fruitfull conversations about the subject.
http://www.ifsqn.com...?showtopic=8483
http://www.ifsqn.com...?showtopic=7795

IMO, ISO 22000 is a new hope in management of food safety area. However, there are some weaknesses of the standard since it is very new .Although standard is new it is dependent on HACCP being a relatively old and unrevised concept for many decades.

Please let me add one of my challenging questions in the matter

Wouldn't it be better to discuss if the HACCP concept which is the core of ISO 22000 standard is still satisfying the needs of the food chain? And, HACCP itself needs time-to-time updating and revisions globally.

Moreover IMO, ISO 22000 is a kind of operating system. Operating systems are composed of two main parts. Those are kernel and shell.

Kernel (in this case HACCP) will be needed to update as well as revisions of the shell. So adaptation of food safety management systems based on HACCP is very difficult with changing circumstances and expectations indeed. However, It is not so easy because it is ambiguous who will do this. WHO? or FAO?, USDA, EU ??

Well, ISO 22000 derives some new concepts such as OPRPs which are not originally included by HACCP.


My other opinions are in the above threads. Of course, we could discuss once again.

Kind regards.

Kara


Edited by downtown, 15 January 2008 - 08:01 AM.


Penard

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 08:18 PM

Hi guys,

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth trying to help some people when you have no reply...Perhaps I'm too tired to understand this kind of reactions :dunno: !

Regards,

Emmanuel.



downtown

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 12:50 PM

Hi all,

Well, everbody tried to express himself instead of being answering to each other in this topic. This is natural because this topic is somehow a poll. So there are many monologues instead of dialogues here. However, we still expect any feedback about our monologues from original starter of the topic.

Kind regards.

Kara



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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:30 PM

Penard / Kara, I totally agree with your comments. It is very disappointing when we take the time to share our knowledge and experience; with unkown faceless people. The very least we can expect is a an acknowledgement and perhaps a thank you. Unfortunatley a deafeaning silence is all to regular.

Thanks for sharing,
Simon


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Posted 28 January 2008 - 11:42 AM

Well, ISO 22000 derives some new concepts such as OPRPs which are not originally included by HACCP

I am sorry to defer in opinion here. OPRPs had always been used under the common HACCP Program or for that matter, any other food safety systems. Only the name and the depth of applications remain different.

While HACCP is merely a risk assesmment tool for purpose of identifying specific category of "risks" to achieve effective risk management against identified performance objectives. Again, I have a diversion in opinion in this respect. HACCP has been a risk assessment tool for a long time and is still is with some addtional help from other tools.

Regards
Suzuki

Edited by Suzuki, 28 January 2008 - 11:43 AM.


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Posted 04 February 2008 - 08:09 PM

Naresh Rao has asked me to add his comments to the thread.

###

I am unable to link to the site given by you. So my feedback is under.

HACCP is a guideline & no org. setup can be certified towards this guideline. So the certification bodies have developed their own standard to certify towards HACCP, which initally been accepted by legal authorities like Dubai Municipality. Once ISO 22000 has been released, it should have been made mandatory for every certification body to certify an org. towards ISO 22000 & not for HACCP. Once this standard is released, HACCP certification should be banned . The reasons :
1. Dubai Municipality is not aware of ISO 22000.
2. The certification bodies are still continuing to certificy for HACCP - shortcuts method for few $.
3. ISO 22000 is loosing its acceptance as HACCP is anyway there & accepted by Dubai Municipality - I think no companies in UAE are certified for ISO 22000.

Thanks & regards

N RAO

###


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zepinto

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 07:56 AM

Kara and Charles, the monologues set the mode for a more practical approach. I shall focus my answer on SMLD business (Small and Less Developed Business) as they build my entire experience in the food industry.

FAO/WHO has issued a guidance document on the implementation of HACCP have a look:
http://www.nihs.go.j...ccfh37crd67.pdf

The paper presents in detail what are the major hurdles when implementing FSMS in SMLD business and it fully corroborates my experience and vision of this specific subject:
1. inadequate infrastructures;
2. lack of expertise and information
3. psychological constraints
4. inadequate basic hygiene
5. human resource constraints
6. perceived and real financial constraints
7. insufficient government infrastructures
8. absence of legal requirements
9. lack of business & customer food safety awareness
10. lack of training and educational programs support
11. inadequate communications

As what concerns my personal experience I would add the lack of credible suppliers of services to support the FSMS, namely:
1. microbiological & chemical sampling;
2. rotation of cleaning products and switching costs associated;
3. staff turnover and the precariousness of their jobs
4. misuse of IT as a tool to improve standards implementation.

The closer you are to the consumer in the value chain the higher is the difficulty in implementing a FSMS. Most of us know that if the raw material is tainted (not acceptable) then there is no FSMS to clean up the mess: ie., we must dispose it. So the bottom line is to have enough bargaining power over suppliers as the food chain approach demands it but, on the other hand, you may find yourself bottlenecked when you only have one supplier within a 50 mile range. So what do you do? Change your business?

Another issue is the need for ISO 22000 by opposition to any other food safety standard. As in ISO 9000, the implementation must be felt as necessary ie., there must be a very good reason to do it. So the inconvenient question WHY must be answered from the beginning and all the time. Managers should write on their desktops: I have implemented ISO because…

Otherwise, it is a waste of time considering the lack of resources at all levels in SLDB (see above). Companies often find themselves struggling to keep track of their management systems instead of focusing particularly in Quality issues (or in this case Food Safety issues) that indeed may contribute to the perception of their product as better than the ones from their competitors.

What is then the contribution for the positioning of a brand if they implement ISO 22000? Do consumers know the commitment involved? I think there is still a long way to go.

Hope this is useful.



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Posted 05 February 2008 - 09:31 PM

Dear Zepinto thanks for this nice reply to the thread. Can we discuss your points on some real examples ?

Can a small company just buying, sorting and selling fruits and vegetables apply HACCP principles? If it can not have a control over for example pesticide residue, do you think it will be possible to implement a HACCP study here? Especially in developing countries where pesticide analyses are too expensive.

Or for example, butchery in a corner, can it have a real control over antibiotics residue in carcasses it receives.

Or even in a big canned product manufacturer, can company really find a chance to accept or reject okras it receives during only in a very narrow season with very small amounts ?

Or, what do you think about product withdrawal/re-call possibilities in a restaurant ?

Of course those questions are open to discussion of all members.

Kind regards

Kara


Edited by downtown, 05 February 2008 - 09:36 PM.


zepinto

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 03:01 PM

The question is about ISO 22000. Anyway, I’ve mentioned it in my post...you are right. It is not easy. That is why we are here at the forum! Usually small factories have to organize themselves in groups (trade associations) so that they can bargain the price for laboratory analyses and many other things (equipment, recruitment). Another way around is something called backward integration. Again, one producer alone is powerless, as such, trade associations can play a major role on ensuring things are done right from the beginning. The word is prevention. Decisions within HACCP are based on a risk assessment approach. The outcome of this assessment determines the levels of acceptability, ie. contamination that is reasonable to accept in food (level of safety required). Beyond that, a good prerequisite program would critically revised the list of suppliers that comply with demanded raw materials specifications. Rgds, Jose



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Posted 18 February 2008 - 08:24 PM

The questions below, posted by Kara are the sorts of things that I was interested in when I started this topic few weeks back. As editor of our magazine's news section as well as for 4 of our online newsletters, I don't drop by the forum everyday, but I'm glad to see that so many people are interested in discussing ISO 22000 and how it affects them and their companies. If anyone has any particular anecdotes about auditing for or implementing the standard I'd be interested in hearing from you personally. Ideally, I'd like the story I'm working on to contain good specific information from the shop floor to the upper management about how the standard is working.
Thanks for all of your input
Carey Wilson
News editor
Quality Digest
cwilson@qualitydigest.com

**************************************************

Can a small company just buying, sorting and selling fruits and vegetables apply HACCP principles? If it can not have a control over for example pesticide residue, do you think it will be possible to implement a HACCP study here? Especially in developing countries where pesticide analyses are too expensive.

Or for example, butchery in a corner, can it have a real control over antibiotics residue in carcasses it receives.

Or even in a big canned product manufacturer, can company really find a chance to accept or reject okras it receives during only in a very narrow season with very small amounts ?

Or, what do you think about product withdrawal/re-call possibilities in a restaurant ?

Of course those questions are open to discussion of all members.

Kind regards

Kara
[/quote]






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