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How do we determine the monitoring sample size?

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AL BUNDY

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 08:40 PM

Hi.... if I have a intermitente monitoring, how do I determine de sample size?...
I think this is a statistics problem.
is there any international reference...?

:biggrin:



hSusan

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 03:32 AM

Hi Al,
Not a statistics person either..but can you provide more information to start with?
Susan



AL BUNDY

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 03:17 AM

mm.... i.e. product's temperature in cold storage room. I will check every 2h the temperature of ¿? products. How many? depends in how many products you can storage.



Charles.C

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 05:44 AM

Dear Al,

I think this is a statistics problem.


In fact anything related to statistics is a problem. Especially statisticians. :smile:

Do you mean you want to estimate the average temperature (per day perhaps) of a specific product ? This would require defining yr "population" and using the routine "normal / std dev." logic I guess with a resulting confidence statement based on the accumulated data (typically minimum 20-30 points from memory for an initially, unknown in advance, scatter). More knowledge = less points, maybe (depending on yr required accuracy).

If you mean,you want to know if the product temperature is achieved to be within "statistical control" that is a different question of course.

I am not a statistician so corrections are welcome.

Rgds / Charles.C

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


GMO

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 06:29 AM

I thought you meant microbiological testing? With temperature it depends whether you are cooling something down or keeping it cold.

For cooling down, I would get a datalogger measuring product and air temperature in a stack in several different parts of the chiller, at 'typical' temperatures. It should then give you an idea of how long it takes to cool, you then need to think 'is that cooling time short enough?' and work out what the longest acceptable cooling time is (your critical limit - you might have to do some micro testing or literature searches for that). Then 'in production', I would measure top, middle and bottom at frequencies well within the expected cooling time of each batch. If something wasn't cooling at the required rate, you could have a tolerance limit and corrective actions such as destacking to maximise surface area.

If you are just keeping things cool which are already cool, I don't think it's a statistical problem. I would measure the air temperature, (probably every 2 hours). Only if the air temperature changes would the product temperature change (and there would be a significant time lag). If the air temp is out of spec, then I would start checking product temps and moving product if possible. Again, I think the only way to check product temperature in that kind of scenario is checking each stack; top, middle, bottom because if you did have a chiller failure, product warms up at different rates according to what it is and where it is (airflow etc).


Edited by GMO, 15 May 2008 - 06:30 AM.


Charles.C

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 06:47 AM

Dear Al,

I guesed by "cold storage" you meant "deepfrozen", eg below -18degC ??

This normally demands input to be already around the same or at lower temperatures. For chilling it's different of course (if chill means around 5degC whatever). Terminology questions as usual. :smile:

In the first case, IMEX, the largest deviations, assuming no equipment failure, are from opening doors for in/out manouevres plus defrosting of internal cooling fans/units (depends on design). Believe it or not, forklifts are not in use everywhere. Another factor is the product - IQF type items will be much more sensitive to temp.swings compared to heavily glazed block frozen.

The rest will depend on yr available level of technological sophistication (??) as per previous post in addition to the statistics.

Guess this is getting a bit OT considering you only wanted a method for sample size. Sorry.

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


AL BUNDY

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 05:01 PM

I'm talking about this.....(photo)
is there any international reference to justify the frecuency and number of product to sample?

Attached File  stats.JPG   63.5KB   50 downloads



Charles.C

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 03:18 PM

Dear Al,

Not exactly sure the meaning of "intermittent' but the general answer to yr question regarding a continuing process is Yes, 100's of them :thumbup: , eg ASTM, MIL Stds etc, etc . This is also the vast field of Statistical process Control, assuming that the process is in Stat.Cont. of course.

For example - http://en.wikipedia....ng_(statistics)

Maybe you meant something more specific, IWC, please elaborate a little.

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


AL BUNDY

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:49 PM

ASTM... it's a good answer.... as a International "sample size" reference.
Thanks



a_andhika

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:46 AM

Hello..
Still related but not precisely, Id like to ask some opinion about MLT-STD. Does it still up-to-date until now? My ISO 22000:2005 consultant says it was waaaay tooo old. But I think it still effective when I have to determine the sample size, well at least in my company. Does anyone has another opinion regarding this?

Thank you...


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safety and quality means perfection
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cazyncymru

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 10:52 AM

There is in the UK the "Food Micro Regs"
But their list is by no mean exhaustive

I've attached them for you to have a look

C x

Attached Files



GMO

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 12:28 PM

I don't think it applies to temperature though AL BUNDY, I think sample size considerations are only useful when you're thinking of things which are unlikely to be uniform and when the test is destructive; I concede that sometimes temperatures are not uniform in a pallet but they are ununiform in a consistent way and you're also not likely to destroy the product by testing the temperature if that makes sense so you either measure several in a defined way (e.g. top, middle, bottom) or the 'worst case scenario' (likely to be somewhere between the centre and top of a pallet). As Caz said, the question regarding sampling and sample size is more about micro testing.



cazyncymru

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 03:06 PM

Al

i'm assuming your monitoring the temp of the cold store? are you doing this via a datalogger?

what you could do is place some samples with dataloggers throughout your coldstore and monitor the temp over say the shelf life of the product.

you could use this to justify only testing the temperature of the product twice a day.

you need to build into your justification though that if the temp goes above a certain temp you will step up monitoring.

c x





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