Under what circumstances can you have a toilet in a production area?

Hi

In order to be certified BRC packaging (plastic packaging industry), we work actually on site requirements. I have a problem with a toilets located inside production area. I think its not allowed by food safety standards.

My question is: can we keep in place this toilets (we could install hand washing inside and outside the toilets) or it is forbidden  to have toilets there under any circumstances?

Thanks

What do you mean by "located inside production area"?
There definitely shouldn't be toilets that open directly into production (or storage, for that matter).

In the case of the Packaging standard I think the relevant clause for you is 6.3.6.

Sorry to jump in on this thread but I have a similar issue with one of our other sites. it's not under any certification scheme at the moment but that site wants to start storing food products. It already has drugs/nhp product storage. It's a DC. no manufacturing, packaging. Only finished product goods but that site has a washroom in the GMP area. I have mentioned the issue numerous times that when people use the washroom and leave the door open after them, this is against GMP but without any certification scheme to hold them accountable I am finding it hard.

I need more information as to the set up. Where are the toilets? What walls are between them and production?

If toilets are near production area, they should have a double entrance (meaning two doors to lead inside) and not directly leading into production, and making sure the drainage is adequate and always monitored and no cross contamination occurs from the bathroom to the outside by movement. We had hand washing inside the bathrooms and then again hand washing outside as well, as if they only want to wash hands they do it outside and dont need to enter the bathrooms. This was at an old facility I had that dealt with RTE snack foods. SQF auditor was okay with it. (I would imagine it's a similar light with BRC) 

Sorry to jump in on this thread but I have a similar issue with one of our other sites. it's not under any certification scheme at the moment but that site wants to start storing food products. It already has drugs/nhp product storage. It's a DC. no manufacturing, packaging. Only finished product goods but that site has a washroom in the GMP area. I have mentioned the issue numerous times that when people use the washroom and leave the door open after them, this is against GMP but without any certification scheme to hold them accountable I am finding it hard.

Not to derail the original thread but installing a door closer, like the ones many facilities use to ensure outside facing doors stay closed, on that restroom door should do the trick.

I would add checking the door is closed to your internal inspections as well, if possible. That way you verify the door closer is working on a regular basis.

As to the OP, the only way I've got a GFSI scheme to accept it (SQF in my case) was a double enclosure, like Food Scientist mentioned. It was a simple enclosed rectangular box that was around 4' long. Long enough we could demonstrate the previous door had self closed by the time you opened the other door, thereby not having a restroom opening directly into the process area.

What do you mean by "located inside production area"?
There definitely shouldn't be toilets that open directly into production (or storage, for that matter).

In the case of the Packaging standard I think the relevant clause for you is 6.3.6.

^^^ this is usually a simple constructional cause of "rejection".

We're moving into a new facility soon and will have the same issue. https://imgur.com/a/ch6iwJ6

Not to derail the original thread but installing a door closer, like the ones many facilities use to ensure outside facing doors stay closed, on that restroom door should do the trick.

I would add checking the door is closed to your internal inspections as well, if possible. That way you verify the door closer is working on a regular basis.

 

As to the OP, the only way I've got a GFSI scheme to accept it (SQF in my case) was a double enclosure, like Food Scientist mentioned. It was a simple enclosed rectangular box that was around 4' long. Long enough we could demonstrate the previous door had self closed by the time you opened the other door, thereby not having a restroom opening directly into the process area.

Thank you for your input! I will keep an eye on this topic. Once again I apologize to the OP for jumping on your topic

We're moving into a new facility soon and will have the same issue. https://imgur.com/a/ch6iwJ6

Diagram is rather small so difficult to make out exactly what is what, but do you have room to install an extra set of doors inside the current ones to form an entry chamber with hand wash station? Otherwise you may need to look at erecting an extra room outside the current doors as a wash station / transition area to ensure sufficient separation.

I'm not sure, I can't tell from the diagram either. I haven't seen the facility in person yet so I'll have a better idea once I go take a look at it. I'm sure one of the two options will work. I'm glad I found this thread because I was thinking that we would have to move all of the plumbing! 

What about contaminants that may end up on shoes?   Would placing a sanitizing mat in the transition area be enough?

I'm not sure, I can't tell from the diagram either. I haven't seen the facility in person yet so I'll have a better idea once I go take a look at it. I'm sure one of the two options will work. I'm glad I found this thread because I was thinking that we would have to move all of the plumbing! 

 

What about contaminants that may end up on shoes?   Would placing a sanitizing mat in the transition area be enough?

What kind of sanitizing mats are you thinking off? The pwder ones would leave a trail all over and I'm guessing that would be a nightmare to clean up

When I was researching this last year I found a post on here that had a link to mats with crystal. I believe you had to have a mist spray to activate the crystal, but once I researched my hazards more we decided not to go that route so I can't speak to their efficacy.

https://www.ifsqn.co...an-environment/

That was the link...it's an oldie.

Edit: BTW I am not saying you should use the sanitizer mats, just giving a direct answer to the question on mats if your hazard analysis proves out that you should.

We would most likely use these mats: https://sanistride.com

Thank you all for providing us with this precious informations. 

I also think the extra room is the solution to this issue. Also, it would be necessary to install an aeration system to avoid any smell around toilets.

N.B: in our case, toilets are open directly on final product area of about 2000 square meters (plastic bag sealing area), the distance between toilet doors and machines is 15 meters (50 feets).

Hi,

toilets are most common potential source of microbial contamination including the salmonella. also contaminate the air in relation with the smell and microbes. that reason due to food safety issues. the toilets opening are not allowed in processing...

finally i am suggesting to close the toilets. 

regards 

basau khator  

We are SQF Certified and have bathrooms that lead into our production area. We have door closers to keep the doors from ever being left open, hand sinks inside and then right outside, we also have a fans that run constantly providing negative air pressure, there is no switch so the fans are never accidentally turned off, we test the fans annually to ensure that no air is escaping from the bathroom with a smoke test. we clean the fan coveres/filter weekly to make sure there is no chance of the fans failing due to being clogged or congested with dust. This has been enough for us to keep our certification. 

We are SQF Certified and have bathrooms that lead into our production area. We have door closers to keep the doors from ever being left open, hand sinks inside and then right outside, we also have a fans that run constantly providing negative air pressure, there is no switch so the fans are never accidentally turned off, we test the fans annually to ensure that no air is escaping from the bathroom with a smoke test. we clean the fan coveres/filter weekly to make sure there is no chance of the fans failing due to being clogged or congested with dust. This has been enough for us to keep our certification. 

Hi Polly,

I assume not directly opening into production area ?

Any type of toilet in a production or storage are is just asking for trouble. When we started we had the same issue but in the end we spent thousands to move the restrooms out of production (this did give a a great place to install and wash stations in thier place). 

Hi there!

We had the same concern with our toilet in production. We are also a packaging company producing packaging intended to come into contact with food (before ranked as high gygiene site).

Explanation: production has an appart room, where there are the handwashing sinks and then two little rooms with toilet in it. As we were really novel when we started with BRC, we hired a consultant. The consultant considered that just by locking the toilets was enough. So we could keep the handwashing usable, but the toilets became non operative. (Basically, we set up different signs (out of use) and tape with "do not enter"; and explained employees that from now on it was forbidden to access those toilets and that they needed to go to the ones outside production).

It worked! 

When the auditor came, he thought it was a good idea, as we didn't really wanted to contruct / throw down all that part, so he accepted it as a solution for it.

We got AA grade

Hi there!

 

We had the same concern with our toilet in production. We are also a packaging company producing packaging intended to come into contact with food (before ranked as high gygiene site).

Explanation: production has an appart room, where there are the handwashing sinks and then two little rooms with toilet in it. As we were really novel when we started with BRC, we hired a consultant. The consultant considered that just by locking the toilets was enough. So we could keep the handwashing usable, but the toilets became non operative. (Basically, we set up different signs (out of use) and tape with "do not enter"; and explained employees that from now on it was forbidden to access those toilets and that they needed to go to the ones outside production).

It worked! 

When the auditor came, he thought it was a good idea, as we didn't really wanted to contruct / throw down all that part, so he accepted it as a solution for it.

 

We got AA grade

Hi Halo,

Thks for input.

TBH I would have thought it easier to buy 2 padlocks + 2 signs saying "NOT USEABLE".