Cynicism, apathy and Clause 1...
Started by D-D, Oct 14 2010 09:33 AM
This is a bit like doing the dirty laundry in public but anyway, never mind, perhaps others have come across the same thing and can share some experiences and advice:
I am convinced that the company directors see BRC as having a bundle of nice procedures (that we don't need to follow) and filling out an application form to join the "BRC Club". Whenever I try and impress upon them what we need to do they look at their watches and think about other more pressing matters. They see Quality and Regulatory as "optional", "for info only"...
Coupled with that, the workforce are jaded by years of poor conditions, lack of training, lack of leadership, indiscipline, indifference and cynicism as they have seen other systems come and go without completion (22000 for example). I have just been out there trying to convey the message that we need to get into the habit of washing our hands before work and I get comments like "I'm not doing that mate, I wash them when they are dirty". (Fortunately everything is very low risk by the way!). This is just a detail of the practices we need to adopt but imagine the bigger things (and coming back to the directors - those that cost money...).
I know this is outside the scope of the usual food safety and BRC posts but before I update my CV, anyone got any advice on how to make progress against these sorts of attitudes?
Thanks.
I am convinced that the company directors see BRC as having a bundle of nice procedures (that we don't need to follow) and filling out an application form to join the "BRC Club". Whenever I try and impress upon them what we need to do they look at their watches and think about other more pressing matters. They see Quality and Regulatory as "optional", "for info only"...
Coupled with that, the workforce are jaded by years of poor conditions, lack of training, lack of leadership, indiscipline, indifference and cynicism as they have seen other systems come and go without completion (22000 for example). I have just been out there trying to convey the message that we need to get into the habit of washing our hands before work and I get comments like "I'm not doing that mate, I wash them when they are dirty". (Fortunately everything is very low risk by the way!). This is just a detail of the practices we need to adopt but imagine the bigger things (and coming back to the directors - those that cost money...).
I know this is outside the scope of the usual food safety and BRC posts but before I update my CV, anyone got any advice on how to make progress against these sorts of attitudes?
Thanks.
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It’s not a new problem - most Quality Managers face this. Welcome to the launderette.
As I see it you have three choices.
1. Leave
2. Accept they will never change, go through the motions and collect your pay check
3. Change them
Choose #1 you may strike lucky and get a job where the senior management are switched on to food safety, but in my experience you will be more than likely be back where you started.
#2 is not an option long term as you will not be happy. You wouldn’t have made the post if you didn’t care.
#3 is very, very difficult but it is possible and very rewarding if successful. The problem is you will have to do the hard work and a lot of the change will have to come for you. You will have to influence the Senior Management and gain their interest in something that right now they are clearly not interested in. If you can be bothered. You are probably doing a lot but it’s not working.
Take a look at this: How To Influence People: Understanding Nine Spheres of Power
On the other hand you could get a massive recall that causes injury, bad publicity and costs bucketfuls of money. That normally grabs the attention.
As I see it you have three choices.
1. Leave
2. Accept they will never change, go through the motions and collect your pay check
3. Change them
Choose #1 you may strike lucky and get a job where the senior management are switched on to food safety, but in my experience you will be more than likely be back where you started.
#2 is not an option long term as you will not be happy. You wouldn’t have made the post if you didn’t care.
#3 is very, very difficult but it is possible and very rewarding if successful. The problem is you will have to do the hard work and a lot of the change will have to come for you. You will have to influence the Senior Management and gain their interest in something that right now they are clearly not interested in. If you can be bothered. You are probably doing a lot but it’s not working.
Take a look at this: How To Influence People: Understanding Nine Spheres of Power
On the other hand you could get a massive recall that causes injury, bad publicity and costs bucketfuls of money. That normally grabs the attention.
This is a bit like doing the dirty laundry in public but anyway, never mind, perhaps others have come across the same thing and can share some experiences and advice:
I am convinced that the company directors see BRC as having a bundle of nice procedures (that we don't need to follow) and filling out an application form to join the "BRC Club". Whenever I try and impress upon them what we need to do they look at their watches and think about other more pressing matters. They see Quality and Regulatory as "optional", "for info only"...
Coupled with that, the workforce are jaded by years of poor conditions, lack of training, lack of leadership, indiscipline, indifference and cynicism as they have seen other systems come and go without completion (22000 for example). I have just been out there trying to convey the message that we need to get into the habit of washing our hands before work and I get comments like "I'm not doing that mate, I wash them when they are dirty". (Fortunately everything is very low risk by the way!). This is just a detail of the practices we need to adopt but imagine the bigger things (and coming back to the directors - those that cost money...).
I know this is outside the scope of the usual food safety and BRC posts but before I update my CV, anyone got any advice on how to make progress against these sorts of attitudes?
Thanks.
Option 2 do nothing isnt an option as when (not if) you get a recall it will be YOU that gets the brunt of it!
You only say it is you think the directors dont care.. I suggest you undertake a gap analysis then sit down with whoever is your direct line manager and "tell it like it is", explaining the financial costs of recall (£25000 per line with ASDA) or having a prohibition notice from the EHO. Draw up an improvement plan and ask them to champion that plan, organising weekly updates with senior managers to ensure you stay on track. Unfortunately, in this kind of role you do find some companies just dont want to change and they should not be manufacturing food no matter how low risk. If you do not get managerial support you cannot change the company alone. I once told a BRC auditor a few home truths in a cleaning cupboard.. meant we failed the audit, and were inundated withy retailer audits, but really put the foot up the managements arse to change things!
With regards the staff, if anyone told me they were not washing their hands, I would follow diciplinary procedures till they no longer worked there (you only have to sack one or two for the rest of the workforce to see you mean buisness!) . It is a legal requirement and that kind of attitude could cost everyone who works there their jobs.. I would enforce this on all the staff with big signs and CCTV cameras (even dummy ones or rumours of covert cameras will work).
Hope this helps, and good luck!!
Nitac, if I may say so your tone sounds a little aggressive. If the operators and management are already tuned out then I can see taking such a stance could make a bad situation worse. I’m not saying I have all the answers just telling it as I see it, maybe more of a conciliatory approach would be more effective.
Thanks all for the input!
Simon: It is option 3 really isn't it? As you say that's why I took the job (for now at least...) but it can really get you down sometimes!
nitac: My line manager is (are) the directors - but I am going to meet with them to spell things out and we'll see if there is any change. I had better read Simon's link first though as my usual approach is: "This is it, warts and all - what the hell are you going to do?" Unfortunately a >hypothetical< recall won't bother them in the slightest.
Sylvester: I don't think nitac is being aggressive at all. I work with a few people with that label (probably me too but nobody has told me!) but to me they are the handful who want to do a good job and improve things. Maybe it is a trans-Atlantic thing but I can definitely relate to nitac's input; you guys are just too nice in the US!
Simon: It is option 3 really isn't it? As you say that's why I took the job (for now at least...) but it can really get you down sometimes!
nitac: My line manager is (are) the directors - but I am going to meet with them to spell things out and we'll see if there is any change. I had better read Simon's link first though as my usual approach is: "This is it, warts and all - what the hell are you going to do?" Unfortunately a >hypothetical< recall won't bother them in the slightest.
Sylvester: I don't think nitac is being aggressive at all. I work with a few people with that label (probably me too but nobody has told me!) but to me they are the handful who want to do a good job and improve things. Maybe it is a trans-Atlantic thing but I can definitely relate to nitac's input; you guys are just too nice in the US!
Dear All,
I do believe that the previous posts hv partially missed the point. Here is a somewhat darker interpretation.
The perspective of some (!) top management is that they believe they must maintain a QA department because –
(1) All the text books say you must have it so local regulations demand it.
(2) Customers are obliged to demand it because of (1). Customer driven standards like BRC demand it because of (2)/ HACCP includes it and the Production Department is too busy making things to fill in the forms.
(3) A ready-made scapegoat is necessary in the event of a rejection. It is illogical to blame Production since the finished product is approved by QA and, even more importantly, the former is solely responsible for the positive part of the bottom line.
(4) As a corollary to (3), well-qualified QA personnel are cheap and easily replaced.
The consequence is that top management is frequently not indifferent to QA, on the contrary, it regards the QA department as a necessary evil and a financial black hole.
Rgds / Charles.C
I do believe that the previous posts hv partially missed the point. Here is a somewhat darker interpretation.
The perspective of some (!) top management is that they believe they must maintain a QA department because –
(1) All the text books say you must have it so local regulations demand it.
(2) Customers are obliged to demand it because of (1). Customer driven standards like BRC demand it because of (2)/ HACCP includes it and the Production Department is too busy making things to fill in the forms.
(3) A ready-made scapegoat is necessary in the event of a rejection. It is illogical to blame Production since the finished product is approved by QA and, even more importantly, the former is solely responsible for the positive part of the bottom line.
(4) As a corollary to (3), well-qualified QA personnel are cheap and easily replaced.
The consequence is that top management is frequently not indifferent to QA, on the contrary, it regards the QA department as a necessary evil and a financial black hole.
Rgds / Charles.C
Oh what a mess! The sad thing is that in some ways your senior management are right. They can behave like that, ignore quality requirements and most of the time they will be fine but it just takes one screw up...
I think of quality incidents as being like Swiss cheese, lots of holes have to line up in a row before things really go wrong and you can muddle through for a long time, years even before getting caught out but the more holes you have, the more chance there will be of something lining up. The sad thing is that there are companies out there who behave like this and do get away with it (by luck or by hiding it) for a very long time. Look at Cadbury's. That attitude on covering things up with the Salmonellae incident did not arise overnight but it might be worth counting up how many millions that cost them.
I would do two things:
Get the management on board first. No point trying to make changes without their buy in. How to do this? Has to be through their pockets (costs of recalls etc). They might (sadly) need a near miss before taking it seriously. If you can, try and show them as much information on other peoples recalls and near misses so the first one isn't the death of the company. Why not bring along to the morning meeting every week "recall of the week" or something similar (FSA have alerts you can sign up to for public recalls).
Then aim for the biggies. No point worrying about whether the floor is immaculate if people aren't washing their hands. Just work on one thing at a time and as others have said, do use disciplinary but not as a first step. Educate, do training courses, signs etc, make it fun; allow some bedding in time (e.g. 1 week where you remind people), make it clear what the consequences are then you must follow through with disciplinary action for the first person who disobeys.
I think of quality incidents as being like Swiss cheese, lots of holes have to line up in a row before things really go wrong and you can muddle through for a long time, years even before getting caught out but the more holes you have, the more chance there will be of something lining up. The sad thing is that there are companies out there who behave like this and do get away with it (by luck or by hiding it) for a very long time. Look at Cadbury's. That attitude on covering things up with the Salmonellae incident did not arise overnight but it might be worth counting up how many millions that cost them.
I would do two things:
Get the management on board first. No point trying to make changes without their buy in. How to do this? Has to be through their pockets (costs of recalls etc). They might (sadly) need a near miss before taking it seriously. If you can, try and show them as much information on other peoples recalls and near misses so the first one isn't the death of the company. Why not bring along to the morning meeting every week "recall of the week" or something similar (FSA have alerts you can sign up to for public recalls).
Then aim for the biggies. No point worrying about whether the floor is immaculate if people aren't washing their hands. Just work on one thing at a time and as others have said, do use disciplinary but not as a first step. Educate, do training courses, signs etc, make it fun; allow some bedding in time (e.g. 1 week where you remind people), make it clear what the consequences are then you must follow through with disciplinary action for the first person who disobeys.
Very good points all and a very worthy discussion. One thing to add is that senior management are often not interested in conformance, things not going wrong, the status quo...becuase it's boring. They cannot visualise the cost of failure until failure hits them in the face.
To be successful Quality Manager's have to demonstrate change and improvement that adds value to the organisation. In my experience this influences and build trust, credibility and respect. If you cannot deliver this then you are viewed as a pure cost and a necessary evil as Charles said.
In many organisations that's the way it is, so you must deliver waste, efficiency cost savings and or promote the cost of not failing or failing very cleverly.
Businesses are in business to make money and first and foremost that's what Senior Management are interested in.
Talk hard cash to them.
To be successful Quality Manager's have to demonstrate change and improvement that adds value to the organisation. In my experience this influences and build trust, credibility and respect. If you cannot deliver this then you are viewed as a pure cost and a necessary evil as Charles said.
In many organisations that's the way it is, so you must deliver waste, efficiency cost savings and or promote the cost of not failing or failing very cleverly.
Businesses are in business to make money and first and foremost that's what Senior Management are interested in.
Talk hard cash to them.
To be successful Quality Manager's have to demonstrate change and improvement that adds value to the organisation. In my experience this influences and build trust, credibility and respect. If you cannot deliver this then you are viewed as a pure cost and a necessary evil as Charles said.
Absolutely. To gain credibility with some factories, I've done it at some cost to my work life balance; coming in to help cleaning shifts (hands on) at 3am etc. Some things can be done in theory but getting your hands dirty goes a long way to building trust and relationships in some factories.
Dear All / D-D,
Going back to the original post, it seems to me that the poster has rightly stated some criteria for a “poor” factory. The fundamental problem has then been assumed to be caused primarily by inefficient / indifferent top management. Dare I suggest that this viewpoint is perhaps rather generous ?. It is possible there are many facilities whose business model is simply to live “on the (minimum) quality edge” as part of their design for a financially successful business. Such a concept tends to overlap into all aspects of the manufacturing process including hygiene.
The driving force behind the second of Simon’s 3 options (Accept they will never change, go through the motions and collect your pay check) may also be non-simple. For example, consider a more extreme (safety) example like the melamine event. How many QC managers must have been involved in approving those (designed) products? (ie fulfilling the necessary evil function). In such cases, job happiness was unfortunately perhaps (over) prioritised by job possession. Hopefully, such constraints are not relevant to D-D’s case.
D-D asked for specific advice. Are you working in a slaughterhouse or ? I know the hygienic basic principles are standard but the baselines may not be identical?
I deduce a request has been made to acquire BRC certification which has polarised the QA situation. One route to avoiding a head-on collision with top management is to set up a pre-audit survey by an accredited consultant. This is a common procedure, is self-protective, and IMEX very illuminating. Significant problems of the type originally mentioned are unlikely to be missed . If such preliminary proposals are simply dismissed out-of-hand by yr management, perhaps yr Simon-type alternatives will become more crystal.
Good luck.
Rgds / Charles.C
Going back to the original post, it seems to me that the poster has rightly stated some criteria for a “poor” factory. The fundamental problem has then been assumed to be caused primarily by inefficient / indifferent top management. Dare I suggest that this viewpoint is perhaps rather generous ?. It is possible there are many facilities whose business model is simply to live “on the (minimum) quality edge” as part of their design for a financially successful business. Such a concept tends to overlap into all aspects of the manufacturing process including hygiene.
The driving force behind the second of Simon’s 3 options (Accept they will never change, go through the motions and collect your pay check) may also be non-simple. For example, consider a more extreme (safety) example like the melamine event. How many QC managers must have been involved in approving those (designed) products? (ie fulfilling the necessary evil function). In such cases, job happiness was unfortunately perhaps (over) prioritised by job possession. Hopefully, such constraints are not relevant to D-D’s case.
D-D asked for specific advice. Are you working in a slaughterhouse or ? I know the hygienic basic principles are standard but the baselines may not be identical?
I deduce a request has been made to acquire BRC certification which has polarised the QA situation. One route to avoiding a head-on collision with top management is to set up a pre-audit survey by an accredited consultant. This is a common procedure, is self-protective, and IMEX very illuminating. Significant problems of the type originally mentioned are unlikely to be missed . If such preliminary proposals are simply dismissed out-of-hand by yr management, perhaps yr Simon-type alternatives will become more crystal.
Good luck.
Rgds / Charles.C
Realistically Charles, the risk from not washing hands is minimal as we are handling drums, pails, jerrycans etc of oils, flavours etc and are a step or two away from retail food items. There are many BRC requirements like this that we need to address in order to enter into the 'spirit' of it but as far as risk to the product goes, there is not much relation.
A few months ago we had a pre-audit survey that highlighted some issues but we would need one every week to maintain visibility of the points raised. Somewhat impractical (and expensive)...!
A few months ago we had a pre-audit survey that highlighted some issues but we would need one every week to maintain visibility of the points raised. Somewhat impractical (and expensive)...!
Dear D-D
I think being harsh and sacking a few employees to set an example is not the right way. You have to remember that change doesn’t happen in one single go.
Let the different managers see why the hygiene rules are so important. I guess if they don’t wash their hand you will also have problems with jewelry and chewing gum.
I hand out monthly checklist to the managers. They walk around and have to report the bad but also the good things. The last one is harder. If the managers respect and follow the rules it’s easier to explain the rules to the rest of the employees. Without back up you will be the annoying quality person who fusses over everything. One auditor called it being the gooseherd. It like the expression...
You said ‘lack of training’. Are you planning to give a hygiene training? I'm working a PowerPoint presentation now (in Dutch) but if you want I can send it to you - as the pictures say it all...
Good luck!
Anne
I think being harsh and sacking a few employees to set an example is not the right way. You have to remember that change doesn’t happen in one single go.
Let the different managers see why the hygiene rules are so important. I guess if they don’t wash their hand you will also have problems with jewelry and chewing gum.
I hand out monthly checklist to the managers. They walk around and have to report the bad but also the good things. The last one is harder. If the managers respect and follow the rules it’s easier to explain the rules to the rest of the employees. Without back up you will be the annoying quality person who fusses over everything. One auditor called it being the gooseherd. It like the expression...
You said ‘lack of training’. Are you planning to give a hygiene training? I'm working a PowerPoint presentation now (in Dutch) but if you want I can send it to you - as the pictures say it all...
Good luck!
Anne
Dear D-D
I think being harsh and sacking a few employees to set an example is not the right way. You have to remember that change doesn’t happen in one single go.
Let the different managers see why the hygiene rules are so important. I guess if they don’t wash their hand you will also have problems with jewelry and chewing gum.
I hand out monthly checklist to the managers. They walk around and have to report the bad but also the good things. The last one is harder. If the managers respect and follow the rules it’s easier to explain the rules to the rest of the employees. Without back up you will be the annoying quality person who fusses over everything. One auditor called it being the gooseherd. It like the expression...
You said ‘lack of training’. Are you planning to give a hygiene training? I'm working a PowerPoint presentation now (in Dutch) but if you want I can send it to you - as the pictures say it all...
Good luck!
Anne
It would be really great if you could share it Anne.
Not nice just a wiley old coyote who’s tried just about every trick in the book during my career to get people to do the right thing. Tried getting irate and whipping operators it works but has a limited lifespan. Getting people to understand takes a lot more time and effort but is more enduring and leads to a happier factory.Thanks all for the input!
Simon: It is option 3 really isn't it? As you say that's why I took the job (for now at least...) but it can really get you down sometimes!
nitac: My line manager is (are) the directors - but I am going to meet with them to spell things out and we'll see if there is any change. I had better read Simon's link first though as my usual approach is: "This is it, warts and all - what the hell are you going to do?" Unfortunately a >hypothetical< recall won't bother them in the slightest.
Sylvester: I don't think nitac is being aggressive at all. I work with a few people with that label (probably me too but nobody has told me!) but to me they are the handful who want to do a good job and improve things. Maybe it is a trans-Atlantic thing but I can definitely relate to nitac's input; you guys are just too nice in the US!
Hello all,
Hereby the PowerPoint presentations. They are in Dutch....but I think everybody will get some idea about the content.
Anne
Hereby the PowerPoint presentations. They are in Dutch....but I think everybody will get some idea about the content.
Anne
Attached Files
What you are dealing with is nothing new. Management regard accreditation as a paper exercise and don't want it to affect productivity. The way we got around their attitude in our Company was to 1. get a pre-audit assessment.... warts and all
2. We have a trained independant auditor (me) I go in on spec and carry out audits I don't charge too much so it's affordable
3. The BEST way to get management to shift their butts is Customer feedback..... once a customer says they want
something it usually done forthwith.
Keep plugging away, gap analysis, audits, reports when the same things come up time after time they eventually get fed up listening to the sound of your voice
Encourage customer audits.... embrace them, they are a great way to up the game of a company
Regarding enforcement of hygiene procedures... have them documented, and use SOPs as Training records and have ALL employees read and sign them. Tell employees that non-compiance is a disciplinary matter and wil be approached as such, then go thrugh the procedure, verbal warning, written warning, then suspension for a day .... that should get the message across...( now if only I could get my lot to do that lol)
I audited a few weeks ago...not ONE person in High Care was wearing their face mask properly.....I dispair sometime, but then we'll get a small victory and it'll all be worthwhile.
Chin up
2. We have a trained independant auditor (me) I go in on spec and carry out audits I don't charge too much so it's affordable
3. The BEST way to get management to shift their butts is Customer feedback..... once a customer says they want
something it usually done forthwith.
Keep plugging away, gap analysis, audits, reports when the same things come up time after time they eventually get fed up listening to the sound of your voice
Encourage customer audits.... embrace them, they are a great way to up the game of a company
Regarding enforcement of hygiene procedures... have them documented, and use SOPs as Training records and have ALL employees read and sign them. Tell employees that non-compiance is a disciplinary matter and wil be approached as such, then go thrugh the procedure, verbal warning, written warning, then suspension for a day .... that should get the message across...( now if only I could get my lot to do that lol)
I audited a few weeks ago...not ONE person in High Care was wearing their face mask properly.....I dispair sometime, but then we'll get a small victory and it'll all be worthwhile.
Chin up
Nice input trubertq; many thanks.
We got a consultant in earlier this year and have plenty of customer audit actions as well but still getting them addressed is a struggle (especially when there is money to be spent...).
As for the training, I am drafting a formal agenda for that; we will hopefully make some progress...
We got a consultant in earlier this year and have plenty of customer audit actions as well but still getting them addressed is a struggle (especially when there is money to be spent...).
As for the training, I am drafting a formal agenda for that; we will hopefully make some progress...
Dear AnneZ,
Forgot to thank you for yr attachments.
The pics obviously hv various sources,
You've obviously put a lot of work into this! I hope the recipients appreciate the content.
Rgds / Charles.C
Forgot to thank you for yr attachments.
The pics obviously hv various sources,
You've obviously put a lot of work into this! I hope the recipients appreciate the content.
Rgds / Charles.C
Thanks for sharing the presenations Anne. Fantastic, especially the graphics.Dear AnneZ,
Forgot to thank you for yr attachments.
The pics obviously hv various sources,and are readily understood. The text is occasionally a bit tricky (for me anyway).
You've obviously put a lot of work into this! I hope the recipients appreciate the content.
Rgds / Charles.C
Thank you all! I hope the employees are as enthusiastic as you all...