Production Manager
Hello everyone
My name is Stefan Fischer and I am the Production Manager of Greyston Bakery, I am responsible for developing and improving recipes,
I joined here to find like minded people who work in the same field as me,
my responsibilities also include Food Safety
so I am in a discussion with my QA manager what is considered accaptable, when bringing in new ingredients for testing.
I am under the impression that I can request and bring into the facility any ingredient for testing without doing all the necessary documentation
until the product is introduced into the production, am I right in assuming this or not.
My QA wants all COA Specs and Kosher certificate of all ingredients I request for R&D, is she right????????
If someone has a response I would like to hear, so I can write a procedure manual for the R&D department.
Thanks
Hi Brownie,
Sorry but IMO you are incorrect.
I suggest you use "Approved Suppliers".
Dear Brownie,
Like Charles I also agree with your QA manager.
Already in your product development process, you should have knowledge about the ingredients/raw materials you are going to use. This information is in the specifications. You should also know if the supplier can meet your requirements. And of course you need to know if there are reliable suppliers for this raw material/ingredient.
Okay, say, you do it your way and use whatever you like in testing phase. The product is good and customers really want this product after the (kitchen) samples you send them. Than you are going to introduce the product in production. As I understood, you have the impression that you should request all information at that moment (and you know the way it is, customer like the product and really want it supplied next week).
1) What if the supplier does not send you the information on time? QA can not perform risk assessment, HACCP study, make finished product specification, make labels, performs test to check the sample to your requirements, approve the supplier. Sourcing can perhaps not find the product in the quality you want for the price that you want in the quantity that you need on time. At least sourcing does not have ability to negotiate about price and conditions.
2) what if the product can not be accepted due to not matching your requirements (microbiology, allergens, etc.) You have to find a comparable product and do all your tests again.
3) what if the supplier does not fit your organization?
Well, If that customer is really demanding, I know what will happen and you know too, and you know it is not really food safety management system.
You really should know the hazard or conclude there are no additional hazards from new raw materials/ingredients before you introduce it.
I will end with 3 real cases, that I have observed in the time being an food safety auditor.
A) company of ready to eat meals. Product developer buys his ingredients at al local Asian toko. The labels are not in the language of the company. After the product was developed, tested and approved. The product could not be sourced on industrial level. Resulting in using small glass (!!) jars of 200 gram in production. Also resulting in some creativity of the QA department, when the label has to be made. She uses an ingredient declaration of a similar product, because the label could not be read. For the risk of glass they found a solution: in preparation room some one was taking the products from the jars and every jar was than washed and checked for damages. But for the costs this extra handling brought, they did not found a solution. Finally during the audit, it was observed that the label and finished product was incorrect and that they even were using a product that was legally not allowed in the products they were making.
B) also a company for ready to eat meals. the product was based on local grandmother's recipe. Product developer uses products from supermarket (Aldi). After the product was developed, they could not find a suitable product on industrial level. The product from the Aldi was somehow specific. The supplier from the Aldi could not be traced. Also this company is buying this ingredient (some kind of local ginger bread) at the Aldi store. in stead of specification they use the detailed ingredient declaration on the label.
During audit, however, they got a non-conformity, due to the fact that Aldi supermarket did not meet the requirements they had for their suppliers.
C) bakery company. Product developer was very creative and had a big garden with an Elder. Because elder berries are claimed to be healthy, she makes muffins with the Elder berries from her garden. The product was very much appreciate by the internal team and for the sample to the customer, she needs more berries. She starts to pick them in the nearby forest. After that for new samples she was asking around if some one knew were she could find Elder. It was found that elder berries are hardly to get on industrial level and she was really going to pick he berries next to the highway. Fortunately the QA manager stopped this project.
So, just some over the top examples. Just take care what you bring in your company and make sure you know what you want to know about it. Maybe just, can I get it in big amounts? will I get it for the price I want? and Will the lady, that I pay to control food safety and quality, agree with it? Otherwise it is just a waste of money, time and energy.
Dear Brownie,
Like Charles I also agree with your QA manager.
Already in your product development process, you should have knowledge about the ingredients/raw materials you are going to use. This information is in the specifications. You should also know if the supplier can meet your requirements. And of course you need to know if there are reliable suppliers for this raw material/ingredient.
Okay, say, you do it your way and use whatever you like in testing phase. The product is good and customers really want this product after the (kitchen) samples you send them. Than you are going to introduce the product in production. As I understood, you have the impression that you should request all information at that moment (and you know the way it is, customer like the product and really want it supplied next week).
1) What if the supplier does not send you the information on time? QA can not perform risk assessment, HACCP study, make finished product specification, make labels, performs test to check the sample to your requirements, approve the supplier. Sourcing can perhaps not find the product in the quality you want for the price that you want in the quantity that you need on time. At least sourcing does not have ability to negotiate about price and conditions.
2) what if the product can not be accepted due to not matching your requirements (microbiology, allergens, etc.) You have to find a comparable product and do all your tests again.
3) what if the supplier does not fit your organization?
Well, If that customer is really demanding, I know what will happen and you know too, and you know it is not really food safety management system.
You really should know the hazard or conclude there are no additional hazards from new raw materials/ingredients before you introduce it.
I will end with 3 real cases, that I have observed in the time being an food safety auditor.
A) company of ready to eat meals. Product developer buys his ingredients at al local Asian toko. The labels are not in the language of the company. After the product was developed, tested and approved. The product could not be sourced on industrial level. Resulting in using small glass (!!) jars of 200 gram in production. Also resulting in some creativity of the QA department, when the label has to be made. She uses an ingredient declaration of a similar product, because the label could not be read. For the risk of glass they found a solution: in preparation room some one was taking the products from the jars and every jar was than washed and checked for damages. But for the costs this extra handling brought, they did not found a solution. Finally during the audit, it was observed that the label and finished product was incorrect and that they even were using a product that was legally not allowed in the products they were making.
B) also a company for ready to eat meals. the product was based on local grandmother's recipe. Product developer uses products from supermarket (Aldi). After the product was developed, they could not find a suitable product on industrial level. The product from the Aldi was somehow specific. The supplier from the Aldi could not be traced. Also this company is buying this ingredient (some kind of local ginger bread) at the Aldi store. in stead of specification they use the detailed ingredient declaration on the label.
During audit, however, they got a non-conformity, due to the fact that Aldi supermarket did not meet the requirements they had for their suppliers.
C) bakery company. Product developer was very creative and had a big garden with an Elder. Because elder berries are claimed to be healthy, she makes muffins with the Elder berries from her garden. The product was very much appreciate by the internal team and for the sample to the customer, she needs more berries. She starts to pick them in the nearby forest. After that for new samples she was asking around if some one knew were she could find Elder. It was found that elder berries are hardly to get on industrial level and she was really going to pick he berries next to the highway. Fortunately the QA manager stopped this project.
So, just some over the top examples. Just take care what you bring in your company and make sure you know what you want to know about it. Maybe just, can I get it in big amounts? will I get it for the price I want? and Will the lady, that I pay to control food safety and quality, agree with it? Otherwise it is just a waste of money, time and energy.
Thank you so much for your input
Just wanted to clear something up, I am not going rogue on my QA
all ingredients I bring in to the facility are bought by aproved Vendors and I got all the paperwork and documentation I need,
However
I had a customer who wanted me to produce her cookie as a co-packer, ( she is Swedish)
before I entertained any further conversation I needed to make a sample if she liked it the way I made it,
there came my issue in order for me to make her recipe I need a specific ingredient which is not produced in
the USA only in Sweden" I went thru all my source I have gathered for the last two decades and nobody has this product.
I found the product at a whole seller who sells product made in Sweden, so I bought it to make the sample,
that is when my QA manager said I could not use it.
I had told her I only use this product to show this customer that we are able to produce her product,
my intention is to have the product copied and produced here in the USA but it is in development,
The product is sold already in the US at various known stores (just got sold to A) and she uses those ingredients in her product.
They approved all of the ingredients.
So I told my QA this and she said still no to me buying it at this whole seller
this is just to clear some misunderstanding but thank you for your input....
regards
Dear Brownie,
Well, I did not though you being rough to your QA. I was just thinking that you were such a creative guy that likes to try everything. I am sorry my post might be a little harsh on you.
I am glad you are a guy that normally has all the documents prepared and get samples from known and approved suppliers. There was nothing new, for you than in my post.
Well in this case I am somewhere between you and your QA lady. Is there a specific reason that she does not trust this sample or wholesaler? Mostly wholesalers can supply a specification. What if your client-to-be provides the sample to you? Can a supplier in Sweden brings you the product or will that supplier also not be approved for some reason?
Can you motivate/justify in a food safety way why this exception should be accepted. Maybe some validation report in which the risks are considered.
Sorry, not much of help.
Good luck.