QA being Pedantic
I recently had an incident on site where the Manufacturing Manager and I had a big argument about traceability.
His team accidentally printed of Batch "HXO5565" instead of "HX05565". As you can see, the 0 became O because the operator made a mistake.
I was going to raise an NCR for the fact that the operator did not catch this mistake during their QCP check. When I started the conversation, he went back to me calling me pedantic and petty as it is a small issue and doesn't need to be raised as an NCR.
My worry is, the product is for a customer and if there are any issues somehow and requires a recall (not even due to the printing, maybe if theres an issue with the product), there is no report or document about this ordeal. Then they would start asking, why did you not raise the incorrect print etc... like "yeah we did see the incorrect print but its fine..."
What do you guys think?
I personally believe my Manufacturing Manager learned the word "pedantic" recently and had been using it to me and my team alot.
Are we being petty about this and should just let it go?
I recently had an incident on site where the Manufacturing Manager and I had a big argument about traceability.
His team accidentally printed of Batch "HXO5565" instead of "HX05565". As you can see, the 0 became O because the operator made a mistake.
I was going to raise an NCR for the fact that the operator did not catch this mistake during their QCP check. When I started the conversation, he went back to me calling me pedantic and petty as it is a small issue and doesn't need to be raised as an NCR.
My worry is, the product is for a customer and if there are any issues somehow and requires a recall (not even due to the printing, maybe if theres an issue with the product), there is no report or document about this ordeal. Then they would start asking, why did you not raise the incorrect print etc... like "yeah we did see the incorrect print but its fine..."
What do you guys think?
I personally believe my Manufacturing Manager learned the word "pedantic" recently and had been using it to me and my team alot.
Are we being petty about this and should just let it go?
Your manager seems more concerned about their vocabulary. I am not familiar with a NCR but what I am is a stickler for the "right the first time" mentality... Even silly mistakes can lead to bigger issues if not caught as early as you had... or not taken seriously.
Proactive Response > Reactive Response
Your manager seems more concerned about their vocabulary. I am not familiar with a NCR but what I am is a stickler for the "right the first time" mentality... Even silly mistakes can lead to bigger issues if not caught as early as you had... or not taken seriously.
Proactive Response > Reactive Response
That made me laugh.
NCR is Non Conformance Report. So we do one when there is an issue for example if somebody misses a CCP check or incorrect best before date or issues with checksheets completion etc. It would ask them to investigate and provide a corrective action.
This makes me think how much quality people think VS manufacturing but my Manufacturing Manager has been in food industry for so long so it frustrates me whenever this happens. Why do I still have to explain and prove my point in every operator error issue...
That made me laugh.
NCR is Non Conformance Report. So we do one when there is an issue for example if somebody misses a CCP check or incorrect best before date or issues with checksheets completion etc. It would ask them to investigate and provide a corrective action.
This makes me think how much quality people think VS manufacturing but my Manufacturing Manager has been in food industry for so long so it frustrates me whenever this happens. Why do I still have to explain and prove my point in every operator error issue...
My experience in both roles has led me to see plenty of disconnect between techs and quality assurance/control. If it wasn't written... it didn't happen. I would go up the chain of command (through appropriate avenues) until someone takes a proactive response or can give me something in writing explaining why we took the approach we did.
When you say a O instead of a 0, are these handwritten reports or typed? For your batch numbers, are they always preceded by two letters followed by five numbers? I would wonder if the O vs 0 is up for debate or interpretation in any way, and whether the operator sincerely interpreted his reference material as an O rather than a 0. Fundamentally I agree that there is a difference between an O and a 0 on a batch number, and the correct ("0") batch number should be used. If your batch numbers follow a strict pattern of -LLNNNNN- (Letter vs Number) then this should be part of a operators training if they're responsible for assigning these batch numbers.
What's really going on here is an oversight in your recordkeeping, it could have just as easily been a swap of two numbers in the batch number leading to similar confusion. In your case it may not be warranted to discipline the operator (because depending on fonts used or other factors it very well could be an honest misinterpretation), but the instance should be documented as a NCR, corrected, and an investigation held to see if this is a problem worth controlling in your recordkeeping process. To use risk analysis terms, it seems that this is indeed reasonably likely to occur! So what is the business impact? And does that then warrant control?
The irony here is that I'm sure this post is coming off as pedantic. :rofl2: The fix could be as simple as changing to a typed font that uses struck-through zeros to better differentiate them.
It's a violation of your program, that alone is worth the NCR. Just because it's a 0 vs O typo right now is meaningless, it could easily be an entire batch wholly mislabeled and sent to retail consumers given that operations is taking such a careless attitude to it.
If keeping your program on the right side of the law is considered pedantic and petty, I think I'd be seeking employment at a facility that takes their quality program more seriously.
Reminds me of a tick-tock short video I just saw where these two guys are making fishing jigs and the one guy says, hey what are you doing - is that styrofoam? We're supposed to be using that plastic resin and the other guy, says, oh shucks it's ok, nobody will ever know and they float better this way!
Nobody will ever know.
Number of years ago I was working as a food safety Auditor and the company I worked for required the producer of the products to imprint a sequence number that in turn would specify the producer, the ingredients, where everything came from etc - well, we had 500 suppliers producing about 4000 products and then one day we started getting shipments from a company that used (example only) #100200355 as their supplier # on the product, they had printed instead #200200355 - it was an oops by a jet printing operator, but they let over 1 million caps go out that way and here I am getting sent out to the company and they actually said they just assume that NOBODY WILL EVER KNOW.
It went deeper because when I got there I asked to review their logging records and they had doctored their logs to show the correct numbers.
They could have simply fessed up, corrected the issue, etc - but they chose to go another route and thus lost their biggest club accounts.
Stick to being risk based, the world needs more of you - file that NCR, at least it will cover your butt - because people will find out and it will be your production manager that pays the price instead you, the customer and the consumers.
Thanks Scampi- we were about to look it up!!!
Hi lynzy05,
I probably wouldn't hold the batch because of it and I am pedantic :biggrin:
But I would raise an NCR to put in actions to prevent a recurrence.
Kind regards,
Tony
Thanks everybody! It is so nice talking to you all about this.
Update: I did raise it higher and it went to my direct manager and head of NZ but they both think its a "small issue to fight about". I am losing the battle and it has become very frustrating to work for a company that doesn't take our quality program seriously. Its exhausting arguing with different managers about why I'm doing what I'm doing. I was trained by my mentor to achieve an AA-grade BRC certificate but my current employer asking me to lower my standard and just maintain the B-grade we have. It is truly mentally exhausting.
I did raise an NCR and I received a very angry email in exchange. I cannot just look away and lower my standard just because people have. I feel like it is against who I am as a Quality officer. I take pride in my work. I don't want to drown with this sinking ship as well so I have documented everything in case something happens to the product.
Thanks everybody! It is so nice talking to you all about this.
Update: I did raise it higher and it went to my direct manager and head of NZ but they both think its a "small issue to fight about". I am losing the battle and it has become very frustrating to work for a company that doesn't take our quality program seriously. Its exhausting arguing with different managers about why I'm doing what I'm doing. I was trained by my mentor to achieve an AA-grade BRC certificate but my current employer asking me to lower my standard and just maintain the B-grade we have. It is truly mentally exhausting.
I did raise an NCR and I received a very angry email in exchange. I cannot just look away and lower my standard just because people have. I feel like it is against who I am as a Quality officer. I take pride in my work. I don't want to drown with this sinking ship as well so I have documented everything in case something happens to the product.
Hi Lynzy
What you just wrote is common.. maybe not to the stage of grade B, but unfortunately the level of ignorance is massive.
Simply, try to change your job for a better place. There will be a quite massive research to do but, trust me it is worth it.
What you tried to prevent the re-occurrence, and only technical & QA people know how big and complicated the traceability could be.
Good luck !
;)