bad HACCP?

Hi again....
why in the cooking step everybody name "patogen survival" as a hazzard reasonably likely to occur?
One of the cooking step's objetives it's kill patogen... so why survival it's likely to occur?

Do we have to say "yes" to the question "reasonably to occur".. to set this step as a CCP... I don't think so.

am I grown?

Hello Al bundy,

Cooking step is considered as a critical control point : if you don't respect the criterias you require to kill all your bacterias or to have a significant decrease, you don't have steps after to control/ reduce your bacterias level. Don't forget sometimes for example you have to maintain right microbiological criterias for 2/3 weeks; if your product isn't cooked enough you could have big issues!

That's the reason why cooking is such an important step, and why it's often considered as a CCP. Last, be careful because some people think cooking destroy all the bacterias, that's wrong : it depends first on your initial contamination first, second on your cooking criterias.

Hope it helps,

Regards,

Emmanuel.

...yes.. I know.. cooking it's a CCP...
but in the hazzard analisis... the m.o. survival it's not a significant hazzard because:
1. it's a step that suposed to kill most bacetrias.
2. You have your process in control with CL and OL

so it's OK to say... hazzard not significant but it's a CCP.. or you have to say.. "yes" the hazzard it's significant just to justify the CCP???

Hi emmanuel... are you a man or woman?... in spanish that name rules for both sex

Hi emmanuel... are you a man or woman?... in spanish that name rules for both sex

He is definitely a man.

Dear Al,

Actually, wud have thought that the entry in yr hazard column wud hv been something like “Failure of cooking process / survival of pathogens, eg as listed below although the cooking process as such is often targeted on a specific species like L.mono I think”.

Not a user of Dtrees myself however I think yr type of question has come up in the forum before and I think other users may agree with you that the text based logic sometimes seems very peculiar. Similar queries have also come up with respect to metal detectors from memory.

I had a look at a few flowcharts and these seem designed to avoid yr textual problem, eg see –

. http://www.wioa.org..../00/paper13.htm

http://www.fao.org/d...g.htm#TopOfPage

Maybe you just have to “go with the flow”

Whatever, it’s an interesting post, thanks

Rgds / Charles.C

Right Simon, definitely...

Hi Charles I agree.... "hazard column wud hv been something like “Failure of cooking process / survival of pathogens, eg as listed below although the cooking process as such is often targeted on a specific species like L.mono I think”.
That it's a USDA generic HACCP model.

About the original question... I found a HACCP in the USDA web used to train the CSI. http://www.fsis.usda...PepperoniHA.pdf

In this HACCP the HA says:
HA need to be adressed YES... CCP NO
HA need to be adressed YES... CCP YES
HA need to be adressed NO... CCP YES
HA need to be adressed NO ... CCP NO

http://www.fsis.usda...PepperoniHA.pdf

So I guess one can use any of this combinations... and you don need to say yes in the HA (as a obligation) in the step where you identified a CCP..

Bye

That it's a USDA generic HACCP model.

You should get a good consulting FS implementor. You appear lost and implementing a Food Safety Program requires basic food safety background. If generic HACCP Model works, there would be no Consultants in this world.

Dear CharlesChew / Al,

You should get a good consulting FS implementor. You appear lost and implementing a Food Safety Program requires basic food safety background. If generic HACCP Model works, there would be no Consultants in this world.

Hi Charles, business a bit down ?

With respect to the pepperoni link, the column format in Al's link seems a bit weak to me (maybe there was some explanation around it?). I'm not a user of this type of approach but the NO >>YES simply seems self-contradictory, ie wrong.

A few other analogous textual approaches (generic!!) I looked up give a more reasonable presentation, I think -

This one has a, generally comprehensible, detailed explanation of a Dtree format IMO (and a length to match) -
http://www.inspectio...ch2sec47e.shtml

These examples are similar to pepperoni but more clearly analysed IMO ( and give a different result ) -

http://www.fsis.usda...CCP_Student.pdf

http://www.fsis.usda...ls/HACCP-15.pdf.


Rgds / Charles.C

Hi Charles C.
I'm not implementing a HACCP. I'm just running my personal knowledge improvement cycle (plan - Implementation - Check - review).. you know.. some time we learn thing but didn't reflex if it's the right way to do it.

Thanx for the help with my doup questions.

It's fine Al.
No questions = No improvement. Both ways.

Rgds / Charles.C

Hi Charles, business a bit down ?

On the contrary Charles C, 2007 was a good year for my FSMS Consultancy. Hoping to move deeper into training and seminars some thing I like to do more of all this while and perhaps some cross border opportunities in 2008.

Cheers
Charles Chew