6 replies to this topic

[Lucas]

Hello all,


I have a question about Traceability that I think it will bring some discussion to this forum.



I will create a kind of a case study so that it will be easier for all of us to produce some comments about this matter.

Imagine a factory that produces cakes, for instance. The raw materials are put into independent silos:

-3 silos for flour (12 tons each);

-1 silo for sugar;

-1 silo for glucose.



In terms of traceability, it is easy to follow the flour batch, as soon as we start to use the third silo (the other two are empty) we can contact the supplier to deliver flour to be put into the other two silos. So, in this case I had Silo 3 with an old batch and silos 1 and 2 with a new batch. Right? The traceability would be very easy to be done, as the flour of different batches didn’t mix up.



Now, if we are speaking about the sugar silo, which in this case is only one, the case is more difficult. In this case, I would have to contact the supplier before the sugar has ended. In this situation I would have two different batches on the same silo: a little bit of the old batch and several tons of the new one. How would we follow the batches on the traceability system? I can’t know the exact moment the new batch started to be used.



Now, the third case is even more difficult. What was described for sugar happens with glucose. However, as the glucose is more or less liquid, when I put a new batch on top of an old one they get mixed (diluted one into another). So how to assure traceability here?



I hope to get some answers and discussion on these 3 cases, as I don’t think they are black or white when it comes to the point of planning the traceability system.



Regards,

Lucas

[Cathy]

The mixed sugar could be handled somewhat imperfectly by understanding that a certain volume of product is assignable to both batches. The glucose, as a liquid ingredient is a different matter. The only suggestion I would give this theoretical company is to mandate a clean break at specific intervals - empty the silo once per month or quarter etc. One could also try testing for contaminants and provide an analytical back up should concerns arise about any particular batch but to be statistically valid it would be expensive.

Companies that fry in large batches experience this same struggle with oil.

Anyone have a good solution other than clean breaks, smaller batches, or segregated containers?

[AS NUR]

IMEX... We have Silo for liquid material.. I know that so dificult to trace the RM.. we try to use persentage of silo... to use the percentage you must have data for one batch production you need how many percent and every day how many batch production.. and you have to know one day receiving liquid how many percent added to silo..
After that you have to make a forecast for liquid need and for production planning so you can schedule receiving of liquid..

And when the liquid come and add to silo we can predict that remaining liquid in silo only 10 percent .. so the batch number of liquid follow the new one...

NOTE : you can use Weight to change percentage of silo...

THats may opinion..

Rgds

AS Nur

[Jean]

Dear Lucas,



I agree with As Nur as it is difficult to trace a RM. In my previous industry (CSD), the batch numbers were noted for each production cycles including the volume sugar syrup remaining in the tank before the commencement of a new cycle. Then we used to calculate how many products will be manufactured with the remaining batch and then add the exact quantity of the new batch required for completing the particular production cycle. When the different batches get mixed up, the only solution is to record both the batches used in that cycle, followed by complete cleaning of the tanks before adding the new batch in bulk quantities.

[Lucas]

Hello,



Cleaning the silo can only be a solution if you are allowed to stop. But imagine that the production runs for 24 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week. This would mean that the silo could only be cleaned once per week, so, in my opinion, cleaning does not solve the problem of mixed batches and in terms of traceability, in this particular example, doesn’t bring a great deal.



In respect to the calculation of a certain percentage of the remaining glucose, or other liquid or semi-liquid, that is inside the silo before we landed another batch on top, has also a problem. Two liquids of the same phase (which is the case) get mixed when they are added one into another. So, I understand that we can assume that if there is a problem in one of the two mixed batches, the old one, as it is more diluted, has less probability of being implicated on the identified issue. But then what would we do when we top up the silo the next time? Would we consider the only two last batches or the three? Don’t forget that the second batch was altered by some percentage by the remaining of the first batch.



I would risk saying that the percentage calculation is the most effective choice. Even though, not the perfect one, as we never know how many top ups we would have to do to get rid of a determined contaminated (for example) batch. The cleaning of the silo would be very important in this procedure (of getting rid of a problematic batch), but does not avoid the same problem happening again in the future.



So, is there anybody with a different solution? In my opinion, the calculation of the remaining percentage of the old batch is winning. What do you think?



Is there anybody with a better solution?



Don’t forget that there is only a silo, the solution is liquid and the factory runs 24 hours a day.



Best regards,

Lucas

[a_andhika]

Dear Lucas,

Interesting topic. May I know why did you stongly urge to different the old and new batch? Does the quality or safety condition of the material are fluctuative among incoming? If the safety does, I suggest you tightening the incoming inspection. Dont mix the material if you are not sure with the safety. If the quality does, but you dare to bear it by some modification (ex. another formula), then I suggest you to have another silo... Even I prefer to return it...

But if the quality and safety condition is the same between old and new batch, I would simply saying that mixed old and new batch is not a problem, and the batch code will turn into new batch code (the dominant is the winner I suppose). The moment you put the new batch is the time you change the batch code for the next production. The traceability is still tracked by that way I guess.

And for the tracing sake, if the old batch is havin problems, then the consequences is rejecting the product that using old and new batch (mixed with the old one). But I would say that was a totally lack of control from incoming inspection and material approval.


Regards,


Arya

[Lucas]

Hello Arya,

It was not an urgent matter, this was just to get some confirmation about what I was thinking as correct, was in fact the best solution. I do not use liquids on silos.

But overall I think you are right. There's no way of avoiding mixing batches if you are putting two different lots in the same silo. But then we never know how picky the certification body auditor is. The best solution it would be aquire another silo, but I don't know how things are in Indonesia, but here in Portugal the crises caught us strongly.

Just a question, Arya, do you know any cross reference table for ISO 22000 and IFS?

Regards,
Lucas