8 replies to this topic

[msh3egy]

Dear friend

clause 7.4.4 selection and assessment of control measure

siad that we must categorized in general control measure (managed throught PRPs or specific control measure related to CCPs

i want to know what is the difference if i manage this point as CCP or PRP

i know that CCP for the high risk

and PRP for the low risk



for an example

i have a control measure for all hazard any my control measure for CCP point treated with this mannar

and point which determined not CCP is treated with its control measure


================

may be i ask with another way

if i didn't make this categorization, what will happen ?

[AS NUR]

Dear msh3egy...


ISO 22000 combines 4 eleents to ensure food safety, they are :

1. PRP
2. HACCP Principles
3. Interactive Communication
4. System Managements

PRP is basic elemnts to apply ISO22000.. so. its mean not to control low risk hazard only but more than that, PRP are used to address basic requirements of food hygiene and acepted good practices of a more permanent nature. you can use basic food safety hygiene from codex as your PRP.

CCP is part of HACCP Principles, that manage the CCP determined to eliminate, prevent or reduce to acceptable level of hazards, as determined during hazard analysis.

rgds

AS Nur

[msh3egy]

excuse me i can't understant may be i must go with direct questions


how to give evidence to auditor that i manage control measure by HACCP plan or PRPs

is this with instruction or procedures ?

[FSSM]

if i didn't make this categorization, what will happen ?

You might already have them classified as OPRP or CCP, but the methodology should be described, so you have something to show the logic behind your decission, the methodology can be the decission tree or any other tool that let you select what control measure to implement and what degree of control is required (OPRP or CCP).

how to give evidence to auditor that i manage control measure by HACCP plan or PRPs

is this with instruction or procedures ?

You have evidence if you comply with 7.6.1 from a to g, this information is usually put down in a format, the only difference with 7.5 is the existance of critical limits. But I think that the basic question here is, if you have classified your control measures and with which criteria you have done so.

Regards,

FSSM

[Charles.C]

Dear mshegy,

2 questions -

1. have you tried reading ISO 22004?, this has a lot more detail regarding yr query (it was issued because 22000 is rather confusing !)
2. have you consulted any other threads in this forum which expand on FSSM's comments and give a logical procedure to predict oprp/ccp, for example could look at the contribution from Bennii.

The truth is that some "powerful" control measures are almost always going to be ccp-oriented, like heating steps which eliminate pathogens, other control measures which are less "effective" may be either ccp/oprp depending on yr interpretation of 7.4.4 (a-g) or part thereof. The latter is subjective just like yr decision procedure for ccps. I expect most auditors will hv a "standard" idea of many typical ccp-type CMs and will go along with yr decision for 50/50 ones provided that you adequately explain yr logic. ISO 22004 comments that the exact balance of oprp/ccps is not critical as long as you can demonstrate / validate that the CM's control the hazard as required.

Also the PAS document is presumably one route to choosing the (non-oprp)PRPs (I don't use ISO 22000 so I am less sure on what people are doing for (simple)PRPs (ie the ones in 7.2.3)

Rgds / Charles.C

[msh3egy]

Dear FSMS

thanks for you reply my reply will into two section:

A)
now i understand that the catogrized of control measures are by using decision tree to evaluate every Hazards are CCP or not



B) i use a form contain Hazard analysis, Hazard identification, Hazard description and IF CCP or Not ' by Decision tree"

and then make control limit for CCP point and control measure for all hazards

and then how monitor this hazards for CCP point and the monitioring frequency



is this ok ?

thanks

[Victor H]

Dear friend

clause 7.4.4 selection and assessment of control measure

siad that we must categorized in general control measure (managed throught PRPs or specific control measure related to CCPs

i want to know what is the difference if i manage this point as CCP or PRP

i know that CCP for the high risk

and PRP for the low risk



for an example

i have a control measure for all hazard any my control measure for CCP point treated with this mannar

and point which determined not CCP is treated with its control measure


================

may be i ask with another way

if i didn't make this categorization, what will happen ?

Dear Friend,

Clause 7.4.4 has two parts, the first part is the first and second paragraph that request to select the control measure needed to address the significant hazard identified completely. Once you have selected the appropriate control measure you need to jump to 8.2 for validation. This is specially important because the validation must happen before the control measure is categorized.

The second part is the categorization process (the third and forth paragraph). The categorization process (the central part of you question) is performed to validated control measures. So far you don't know if the control measure is a PCC or a PRPo. If you don't perform the categorization you just have control measure addressing significant hazards. The categorization process allows you to organize and implement a monitoring plan.

If, as a result of the categorization, your control measure is a PRPo you need to develop a plan as is established in 7.5. If it is a PCC the plan is developed in 7.6.

If you haven't notice it both results (PCC and PRPo) are addressing a significant hazard, so both are in the same level. The difference is not the level of the hazard, the difference is how the control measure acts against the hazard.

Regards,
Victor

[Charles.C]

Dear Victor,

Thks yr input and welcome to the forum ! (Peru is quite a rare source IMEX )

[quote]If you haven't notice it both results (PCC and PRPo) are addressing a significant hazard, so both are in the same level. The difference is not the level of the hazard, the difference is how the control measure acts against the hazard.[/quote]

I certainly agree with you that it's not a black/white decision based on one characteristic but some people might debate this statement by comparing the definitions of CCP and OPRP, and also items like 7.4.4(e).

Regards,
Victor
[/quote]

[FSSM]

Dear FSMS

thanks for you reply my reply will into two section:

A)
now i understand that the catogrized of control measures are by using decision tree to evaluate every Hazards are CCP or not



B) i use a form contain Hazard analysis, Hazard identification, Hazard description and IF CCP or Not ' by Decision tree"

and then make control limit for CCP point and control measure for all hazards

and then how monitor this hazards for CCP point and the monitioring frequency



is this ok ?

thanks

Well, I think it is OK.


Regards,

FSSM