19 replies to this topic

[SS2010]

Hi All,

I have just finishedd my BRC audit ,and auditor was suggesting that at receival time chilled product temp. should not exceed than 5 degree c,where as my system permits 7 degree as a surface tempr...can any one advice me on it please???

Also What should be the ideal handwashing temp,as i was googling and was not able to find particular water temperature ,every guid line was suggesting it should be warm running water....please advice me ......

kind regards

[Martinblue]

Hi SS2010,

I would agree with auditor for temperature under 5 C especially at the time of delivery because you never know far how long this has been above 5C during delivery.
About water temperature 35-40C is recommended but i have also experience of 50 C. But the best practice for both would be a risk assessment.





I hope its help.
regards

Martin

[Charles.C]

I have just finishedd my BRC audit ,and auditor was suggesting that at receival time chilled product temp. should not exceed than 5 degree c,where as my system permits 7 degree as a surface tempr...can any one advice me on it please???

?Process?

Rgds / Charles.C

[GMO]

In the UK it is legal to have chilled food kept at 8 degrees so you may struggle to get a chilled supplier to guarantee below 5. I don't know what the situation is in Australia. Depending upon the chilled foodstuff, I've had target delivery at 5, accept under concession up to 8. Also just because it's below 5, doesn't mean it's been that way the whole journey. The trailer should have some record to prove this if you are concerned.

Be aware that not all chilled foodstuffs will be potentially dangerous above 8 either. I remember rejecting cheddar arriving at 10 degrees not realising that cheddar is matured around this temperature and it had just left maturation. (In my defence we had no means to reduce the temperature of a tonne of cheddar and it was out of specification.) Likewise some chilled leaves will be better stored at a slightly higher temperature (around 7 or 8) to avoid leaf damage.

[GMO]

Oh and here's some info on handwash temperatures. It's the only reference I've ever been able to find:

http://www.sandwiche..._practice.shtml

"Hand wash facilities must have taps operated by elbow, knee, foot or sensor systems and not by hand . Water should be premixed to a temperature of 45-50oC. Handwashing must be performed at appropriate intervals."

[GMO]

Sorry - posted twice.

Edited by GMO, 08 February 2011 - 08:16 PM.

[SS2010]

Hi Martin thanks fot the advice,

For the hand washing water temp you are suggesting that required the risk assessment,what do you reckon how can i do risk assessment?As per my understanding if i would go for swab test after washing the hand at particular temp ,would it be suffice?? If you reckon YES than which microbes i should take into consideration??

Thanks in advance

Hi SS2010,

I would agree with auditor for temperature under 5 C especially at the time of delivery because you never know far how long this has been above 5C during delivery.
About water temperature 35-40C is recommended but i have also experience of 50 C. But the best practice for both would be a risk assessment.





I hope its help.
regards

Martin


[/quote]

[Jason H.Z.C.]

Hi ss2010,

In my personal opinion, the swab test on the washed hands is not called risk assessment. It seems just a kind of validation/verification for the temperature of water you selected.

In ISO 9000 the concept "validation" & "verification" are addressed and defined. Validation is confirming if the method is able to achieve the expecting result;
And verification is verifying whether the real operation is performed against your established control measures and achieve the specification.

The risk assessment is a kind of statistic method to illustrate the risk of the hazard to be controlled by factories. Codex hazard analysis(HACCP) is a kind of risk assessment. After done this, you could establish CCPs for those "significant" hazards(with high risk scores). Normally in my country, swab test is conducted in the processing room, but not directly after hand washing. It is one verification measure to the established SSOP for hand cleaness.

Back to your issue, my personal opinion, if you want to validate/verify effectiveness of the tap water temperature on the washed hands, TPC and fecal indicator coliforms can be tested. Other additional pathogen tests based on the kind of products. e.g. Salmonalla etc.

Finally, I think the sole validation to the water temperature is not wisable. Because, hand sanitizing normally divided into five steps: wash-liquid soap cleaning-wash-disinfectant-wash. Combination of such five steps result in the final loading of microbees(of course original culture loading is another factor for final loading). Yes, the higher water temperature, the easier removing the bactera from hands. But I propose to consider this factor combining with other factors. Then you can find your what you want.

Only my five cents opinion,

Best regards

Jason

[Charles.C]

My 5cents worth.

Despite it's appearance in various places, the issue of water temperature is considered in some reference articles to be irrelevant.

Rgds / Charles.C

[GMO]

I agree, it is irrelevant to the efficacy of handwashing; the purpose of choosing a temperature which is warm but not too hot is to encourage effective handwashing not to make the handwash effective. I.e. the handwash gel or whatever you use is normally perfectly safe and effective in cold water but who wants to wash their hands in cold water? Likewise who wants to wash it in water that hurts it's so hot?

I think that's why the BSA is the only source I've found to advise a temperature as it's obviously a process which relies heavily on effective handwashing for the food safety.

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

Re- hand washing temperature, a long, long discussion exists here -

http://www.ifsqn.com...dpost__p__40289

Rgds / Charles.C

PS - I am (now) guessing BSA = British sandwich Association

[Foodworker]

Just to re-enforce the BSA temperatures, the BRC Interptetation guidelines state (4.7.4)

"....water in sufficient quantities and at a suitable temperature (comfortably warm is about 45C )113F)) "

Edited by Foodworker, 09 February 2011 - 01:42 PM.

[Charles.C]

Dear BRC Guideline,

"....water in sufficient quantities and at a suitable temperature (comfortably warm is about 45C )113F)) "

Actually from my frequent experience of setting up/using a water-bath to confirm E.coli (44degC), above temperature is uncomfortably warm
(Or perhaps i have unusually sensitive fingers)

(cf USA Food Code 2009 implies 40degC)

Rgds / Charles.C

[Foodworker]

I think I probably agree with you.

In the interests of science (and to put off writing a complicated report) I measured the temperature of my mixer taps & basin at home.

50C was painful, 45C was tolerable, 40C was easy.

Can we use this forum to set 42.5C as the internationally recognised correct temperature for handwash water supplies

[Martinblue]

.

Finally, I think the sole validation to the water temperature is not wisable. Because, hand sanitizing normally divided into five steps: wash-liquid soap cleaning-wash-disinfectant-wash. Combination of such five steps result in the final loading of microbees(of course original culture loading is another factor for final loading). Yes, the higher water temperature, the easier removing the bactera from hands. But I propose to consider this factor combining with other factors. Then you can find your what you want.



Well explained by Jason but just like to add in five steps for hand sanitizing. IMHO Fifth step should be drying instead of wash again.

regards

martin Blue

[Jason H.Z.C.]

Dear Martinblue,

Thanks for good recommendation .

It probablly is the reason that type of disinfectant allow you to establish such procedure. In China, hypochlorite is widely used as the disinfectant. So we usually wash our hands after getting in touch with disinfectant. then finally we will dry our hand by means of drier or single use paper towels.

Also actually in personal opinion I agree temperature of water more refer to the humanity.

Best regards,

Jason

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

This article may also be of interest -

 HandwashWaterv2.doc   109.5KB   34 downloads

(I believe the specific required value given in the quoted 5-202.12 has been quietly removed in current 2009 version [ie i couldn't find it]).
The comments in attachment also suggest that occasionally "validations" may be misused. Surprise !

Rgds / Charles.C

[Jason H.Z.C.]

Dear All,

This article may also be of interest -

 HandwashWaterv2.doc   109.5KB   34 downloads

(I believe the specific required value given in the quoted 5-202.12 has been quietly removed in current 2009 version [ie i couldn't find it]).
The comments in attachment also suggest that occasionally "validations" may be misused. Surprise !

Rgds / Charles.C

Dear Charles.C

Thank you for attachment,

It well interpreted and set the temperature of water at 40 celsius +- 3 degree.

Also explanation was given by such research on the reasons for setting at such temperature, including the consideration on humanity as well as the shortness when temp. above 43 celsius.

Worth to read it.

Best regards,

Jason

[Martinblue]

Dear Martinblue,

Thanks for good recommendation .

It probablly is the reason that type of disinfectant allow you to establish such procedure. In China, hypochlorite is widely used as the disinfectant. So we usually wash our hands after getting in touch with disinfectant. then finally we will dry our hand by means of drier or single use paper towels.

Thanks dear. Thats new for me.

Thanks for sharing
martin blue

Edited by Charles.C, 14 February 2011 - 01:23 AM.
added a [/quote], hopefully correctly

[SS2010]

Many many many thanks to charles...

u have made my day!!!!!

Dear All,

This article may also be of interest -

 HandwashWaterv2.doc   109.5KB   34 downloads

(I believe the specific required value given in the quoted 5-202.12 has been quietly removed in current 2009 version [ie i couldn't find it]).
The comments in attachment also suggest that occasionally "validations" may be misused. Surprise !

Rgds / Charles.C