22 replies to this topic

[GMO]

After QSDA's post it got me thinking about non conformities I have and haven't argued about in the past with a BRC auditor.

On my last site we had 2 minors in our first BRC audit. One of them was this (and I'm paraphrasing):

"There are no contact details for the incident team in the incident manual."

The contacts were in a separate document but this was referenced, hyperlinked and printed out for the hard copy. The reason for this was so if contact details changed, the document could be changed easily without having to retrain everyone. (I note in verson 6, it specifically says that's ok but it didn't say anywhere in version 5 that it wasn't ok!) I didn't bother arguing.

At my current site, there was one point raised along these lines:

"There is a bad smell in the gents changing"

Ok. Hmm. Well obviously a bad smell might indicate something is wrong like a drain issue, or perhaps lack of cleaning (but they could show cleaning records) or it could just be 60 men using the space designed for 20 and let's face it, men can be a bit whiffy, especially if they've worked 12 hours at 30 degrees plus. I wasn't on site during the audit as I wasn't working for the company then but I would have loved to see what section of the standard said the toilets aren't allowed to smell... I mean what level of smell is acceptable? Where is the critical limit? Are we talking mild whiffs or a mixture of camembert and farmyard here?

[L.M.R.]

An auditor once had me rummaging through garbage cans and gave us a non conformance for having a candy bar wrapper in a garbage can BEFORE the production area. He said the wrapped is evidence that people are eating outside the lunchroom. I argued that the garbage was not in the production area and someone could have thrown the wrapped out on their way in or out of the building. (the garbage can is close to the employee exit/entrance)

[GMO]

An auditor once had me rummaging through garbage cans and gave us a non conformance for having a candy bar wrapper in a garbage can BEFORE the production area. He said the wrapped is evidence that people are eating outside the lunchroom. I argued that the garbage was not in the production area and someone could have thrown the wrapped out on their way in or out of the building. (the garbage can is close to the employee exit/entrance)

Non conformance for using a bin for the purpose a bin was designed... Sheesh!

[Foodworker]

I had a Sainsbury audit once, several years ago I admit, where we had a 'non conformance' for using blue paper towels at the handwash instead of white, because that is what it said in their Code of Practice.

What made it even more stupid was that the company was packing tea bags so the product medium was white paper.

[GMO]

I had a Sainsbury audit once, several years ago I admit, where we had a 'non conformance' for using blue paper towels at the handwash instead of white, because that is what it said in their Code of Practice.

What made it even more stupid was that the company was packing tea bags so the product medium was white paper.

Well to be fair at least they were auditing against their code of practice. SHAME THEIR CODE OF PRACTICE WAS STUPID!

[mgourley]

I had a non conformance in a AIB audit for not having hands free hand wash sinks. One of the Minor Requirements in the section was that "hands free sinks are desired." I argued that you can't require a desire.
AIB stopped enforcing that part of the section shortly thereafter.

Marshall

[badolan]

I had a non conformance in a AIB audit for not having hands free hand wash sinks. One of the Minor Requirements in the section was that "hands free sinks are desired." I argued that you can't require a desire.
AIB stopped enforcing that part of the section shortly thereafter.

Marshall

Unfortunately, HACCP still holds that non-conformance in effect. We have been audited and received double points on that one because my boss absolutely refuses to make our wash sinks hands -free and even told the auditor as much. So I guess we lose more points the next time. Around here it's hard enough to get the plant employees to even use a wash sink for their hands instead of the 3-compartment sinks. I know the auditors are trying to make our lives and the consumers better by what they do, but sometimes complying with their rules and regulations isn't as easy as they would like it to be.

[mgourley]

Unfortunately, HACCP still holds that non-conformance in effect. We have been audited and received double points on that one because my boss absolutely refuses to make our wash sinks hands -free and even told the auditor as much. So I guess we lose more points the next time. Around here it's hard enough to get the plant employees to even use a wash sink for their hands instead of the 3-compartment sinks. I know the auditors are trying to make our lives and the consumers better by what they do, but sometimes complying with their rules and regulations isn't as easy as they would like it to be.

Well, after the audit we put in hands free sinks. It had never come up in an audit before, probably because the language was vague. The whole requiring a desire thing. AIB will be changing the wording in their next revision.

Marshall

[Madam A. D-tor]

Strange NCs I have heard of:
1) no microbiological testing results of steam available;
2) no risk assessment with occurrence X effect matrix available for the frequency of internal audits;


And, I also made a NC for strange odours. in this case a smell as like water standing still. The building was now a processing plant, but was formerly a poultry slaghtery. In bad wether (someway always whem I am there for an audit) the drains get smelly.
On smelling changing rooms I only make remarks. On toilet sprayers I make a non-conformity. This in relation that personnel is not allowed to use perfume/ after shave and therefore it should be prevented that they are 'contaminated' with these toilet sprays.

[GMO]

"This in relation that personnel is not allowed to use perfume/ after shave and therefore it should be prevented that they are 'contaminated' with these toilet sprays."

You mean those movement activated air fresheners? I agree with you. I banned them from one site I was at, a new build, then when I came back from a holiday, found they'd been installed. Some people just refuse to listen. We didn't get a non conformance for it but I wish we had.

[Madam A. D-tor]

"This in relation that personnel is not allowed to use perfume/ after shave and therefore it should be prevented that they are 'contaminated' with these toilet sprays."

You mean those movement activated air fresheners? I agree with you. I banned them from one site I was at, a new build, then when I came back from a holiday, found they'd been installed. Some people just refuse to listen. We didn't get a non conformance for it but I wish we had.

Yes, these ones are bad, but even worser are toilet sprays in spray cans. You can be 100% certain that these will 'contaminate' your workers.
 toilet 1.jpg   58.99KB   6 downloads  toilet 2.jpg   5.75KB   3 downloads

[QATech]

Our office is separated from factory by a door (similar to most food factories) but in the same building. We have our office toilets and factory staff toilets on site. Can we have air fresheners and duck toilet sprays for office toilets only or will it be a non conformance during BRC?
Thank you in advance

[FurFarmandFork]

Before I got here, my site had an inspector that went into the warehouse, then the separate equipment boneyard (a door and stairs required to access), then removed a non-anchored wall panel which provided maintenance access to ducting behind the wall, and cited "insanitary conditions" because the area back there was not swept and contained dust/insulation.

[trubertq]

I had an auditor go through 8 years worth of pest control documents until she found a non-conformance. Mind you this was the audit from hell as within the hour she had bullied and harassed us to the extent we had lost the will to answer her questions.

[Madam A. D-tor]

here is a really ridiculous non-conformity. It is a real case. However I did not wrote the non-conformity because I was totally overwhelmed of what was happening there. It really should have been a major or a critical.

 

Here is the story:

I was auditing a plant, where I have been 3 years before and which was known to have pest (rodents) problems in the past. The site is situated in an monumental building in the harbor area. Products handled are nuts that came with big bags in container from over sea.

From the previous audit I remembered that there were a lot of mice droppings near the walls. They had several non-conformities about pest control.

When I was asking for it during opening meeting, the QA manager said that they made huge improvements. Together with the professional pest controller they have been established a project and control measures are improved, more traps and baits are placed, etc.

 

For the audit tour they gave me a coat, with a loose button, of which I made a remark.

During audit tour I saw all the extra measures that were taken. And during audit tour I did not find any mice droppings or signals of infestation.

After the audit tour, I made a compliment to the QA manager towards the pest control improvements. Joking that there have probably been an extra cleaning in the morning. At the same time I was getting out of the coat and I felt in the pocket to see if I left my pen there. I felt there was a used hairnet in the left pocket and some crumbs in the right pocket. I wanted to see the crumbs, to confront the QA manager with it, assuming it was his coat. However the crumbs were no crumbs.....it was a pocket full of mice droppings!!! I showed the QA manager, went to wash my hands and was really demanding an explanation.

 

It was found that before the audit one of the senior manager went to the production and picks up every mice dropping he found. Just putting it in his pocket . Not in a bag, or a pot, or any other container. He told that he used to do this every time. I was so astonished, so perplexed. I can tell you, that I did not shake hands with that manager when I left the company.

[Madam A. D-tor]

Our office is separated from factory by a door (similar to most food factories) but in the same building. We have our office toilets and factory staff toilets on site. Can we have air fresheners and duck toilet sprays for office toilets only or will it be a non conformance during BRC?
Thank you in advance

 

I am not sure. in fact BRC does not say anything about air fresheners, but it is line with the BRC to have none.

Why do you want to have air fresheners anyway. If there is a good ventilation system in the toilet it is not needed.

[GMO]

I am not sure. in fact BRC does not say anything about air fresheners, but it is line with the BRC to have none.

Why do you want to have air fresheners anyway. If there is a good ventilation system in the toilet it is not needed.

 

Ooh a zombie thread has been revived!

I agree that they aren't necessary but I've eased up nowadays about the movement operated air fresheners.  I've never had a non conformance on them but still think they're unnecessary.

[Sanitation]

I had an auditor go through 8 years worth of pest control documents until she found a non-conformance. Mind you this was the audit from hell as within the hour she had bullied and harassed us to the extent we had lost the will to answer her questions.

That is what I worry about!!!!  I am new to my position and have never dealt with auditors before, but will be having a BRC audit next month.

[GMO]

That is what I worry about!!!!  I am new to my position and have never dealt with auditors before, but will be having a BRC audit next month.

 

Don't worry.  Get evidence ready for every section in advance.  Put examples out in your meeting room of things s/he will look at, like examples of internal audits, pest control, management review, complaints etc.  Then when there is a lull or s/he is waiting for something else you can say "would you like to look at this while you're waiting?"  

[Madam A. D-tor]

That is what I worry about!!!!  I am new to my position and have never dealt with auditors before, but will be having a BRC audit next month.

 

Do not worry! Most auditors are human or we try to be. We are not all that harsh. If you make sure you are sufficient prepared you are probably fine.

If you like to be more confident, consider a pré-audit by a consultant. Then you will know what kind of questions you can expect. 

 

I had an auditor go through 8 years worth of pest control documents until she found a non-conformance. Mind you this was the audit from hell as within the hour she had bullied and harassed us to the extent we had lost the will to answer her questions.

Well, it seems to me that everything was all right in your company. If an auditor has to go through eight years of pest control reporting before she can find a non-conformity. Well, actually this is a compliment to your company.  And actually if the frequency of the audit is annually, the auditor should report incidents from the last 12 months. From auditor view there is no use to look at that long time of pest control records. It only costs time and I really make a joke of myself if I report that 7 years ago there was something wrong with the pest control management.

[QM-OS]

We where once close to receive a minor non-conformity for having the "wrong" phone number to the certification body in our emergency contact list.

It was the main switchboard number to the company but the auditor prefered if it was a direct number to someone at the audit department.

 

We argued that people do tend to change job and having a switchboard number that rarely changes is therefor better.

Also, auditors at this company are almost impossible to reach, even on direct numbers! 

This was hinted to the auditor (in good spirits) so we didn't get a NC for this in the end.

[John Moreton]

Once had an Audit Non Conformence ( Albeit from a customer ). Part of our approval for raw material revived ( Powder) was a color match against our master retained material. 3 people where trained to do this approval.....The Auditor asked if they had all been tested for Color Blindness and was adamant that all the material approved was non conforming due to no one being tested. .....As a consequence we had to send all the QCs to go get a color blindness test.

 

I appreciate he may have a small point, but the likelihood of all e people being effected is below low 

[Andy_Yellows]

Once had an Audit Non Conformence ( Albeit from a customer ). Part of our approval for raw material revived ( Powder) was a color match against our master retained material. 3 people where trained to do this approval.....The Auditor asked if they had all been tested for Color Blindness and was adamant that all the material approved was non conforming due to no one being tested. .....As a consequence we had to send all the QCs to go get a color blindness test.

 

I appreciate he may have a small point, but the likelihood of all e people being effected is below low 

Did the auditor also ask if they had English degrees in order to sign their name off against their training?