8 replies to this topic

[dj.E]

hi i would like to ask if there are members still using thawing under running water for deboned milk fish or any fish similar?

is it still acceptable or are there other requirements in using this procedure?

 

we have limited storage spaces and our fish processing line is not that big so the management is hesitant to purchase a separate chiller for fish.

 

thanks. 

[suntzu]

you dont necessarilly need a separate chiller for fish...

 

simply put the frozen fish into a storage container with a lid, and leave it in regular fridge.

 

if there is a fear of smell and flavours being an issue, then wrap the top of the container with plastic wrap before placing the lid on top.

 

the defrosting fish in your fridge will improve the efficiency of the fridge (radiated cold), and you wont be diluting the fish flavour by washing it out in "fresh" water.

 

this same method can be used for any frozen products, and is actually the preferred method for defrosting.

[dj.E]

you dont necessarilly need a separate chiller for fish...

 

simply put the frozen fish into a storage container with a lid, and leave it in regular fridge.

 

if there is a fear of smell and flavours being an issue, then wrap the top of the container with plastic wrap before placing the lid on top.

 

the defrosting fish in your fridge will improve the efficiency of the fridge (radiated cold), and you wont be diluting the fish flavour by washing it out in "fresh" water.

 

this same method can be used for any frozen products, and is actually the preferred method for defrosting.

 

Thanks suntzu.

however our chillers available are for vegetables and pork shoulder butt. i wonder if we won't have any issues with cross contamination and haccp if we do that?

[suntzu]

Thanks suntzu.

however our chillers available are for vegetables and pork shoulder butt. i wonder if we won't have any issues with cross contamination and haccp if we do that?

thawing fish under cold water is actually considered risky, mainly because the (external of the) fish will be warmed and not kept below 5 degrees C

 

the best way to think of cross contamination is as a "stepping" process, where bacteria etc is transfered from one surface to another..

 

like this..

 

i dip my hand in mud, and shake your hand, which is now covered in mud, then you shake someone elses hand, which then becomes covered in mud, so the mud has been transferred along a chain, to the 3rd person i have never met.

 

so if you put the fish into a sterilised container, the outside is still sterile even though the fish is inside. and any condensation that occurs outside is only contaminated by airborn bacteria or by the shelf upon which it is stored. the inside of the container is theoretically "contaminated" with fish (and bacteria (which by the way is present everywhere even though you cant see it))

 

so after the fish is removed from the container, you just wash and sanitise the container and it can now be used for pork or whatever, though may still have a fishy smell this does not make it dirty or unhegenic, just distastefull.. im not a fan of fishy pork myself, hehe.

 

all food handlers in Australia are required by law to complete a Food Handlers Safety Certification course, which you can do FREE online.

 

heres the link...

 

http://www.brisbane.imalert.com.au/

 

you can do the course, and get certification to Australian standards.

 

i would like to advise that this is an "awareness" course and does not on its own infer "competency" .. which can only be recognised through being able to practice safe handling of food techniques.

 

right now im in Indonesia as a chef, and im actually getting all the workers in my kitchen to do this course, for their awareness, which will surpass anything the Indonesian government has in place for educating the food handlers here (if youve ever eaten street food here you will understand my concerns, hahaha).

 

also, if your interested for documents for monitoring HACCP procedures, heres some good resources:

 

Agricultural dept Canada:

http://www1.agric.go...sf/all/afs12301

very thorough with downloadable book chapters and templates

 

Victorian Health dept Australia:

http://www.health.vi...s/templates.htm

my personal opion is better templates than Queensland, has pdf but even better is the word version of the templates which is easilly editable

 

Queensland Health dept Australia

http://www.health.ql....au/foodsafety/

has loads of factsheets in addition to templates for using in a HACCP program (use the Qld factsheets, but the Victorian word document templates)

[dj.E]

Wow thanks. Now I've got a lot of reading to do. haha 

[Charles.C]

hi i would like to ask if there are members still using thawing under running water for deboned milk fish or any fish similar?

is it still acceptable or are there other requirements in using this procedure?

 

we have limited storage spaces and our fish processing line is not that big so the management is hesitant to purchase a separate chiller for fish.

 

thanks. 

 

Is this a manufacturing production scenario or a home / restaurant ? (i note yr use of "processing line").

It tends to make some difference if you are talking about 10kg or a few thousand.

 

IMEX, on a ton scale, the traditional method of overnight thawing in tanks is still popular under a watchful eye(s) regarding temperature control.

 

On a home scale, the USFDA adores thawing in refrigerators. but available time can be a demanding master/mistress.

 

Perhaps it also relates to yr allowed micro.limits for the thawed product. If any ?

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[dj.E]

Is this a manufacturing production scenario or a home / restaurant ? (i note yr use of "processing line").

It tends to make some difference if you are talking about 10kg or a few thousand.

 

IMEX, on a ton scale, the traditional method of overnight thawing in tanks is still popular under a watchful eye(s) regarding temperature control.

 

On a home scale, the USFDA adores thawing in refrigerators. but available time can be a demanding master/mistress.

 

Perhaps it also relates to yr allowed micro.limits for the thawed product. If any ?

 

Rgds / Charles.C

 

Hi Charles C.

 

This is a manufacturing scenario where we process fish at 750kg the least per day. I have to say that we are using conventional or highly manual cooking procedure.

 

As of now we do not have micro limits set for thawed fish.

[Charles.C]

Hi Charles C.

 

This is a manufacturing scenario where we process fish at 750kg the least per day. I have to say that we are using conventional or highly manual cooking procedure.

 

As of now we do not have micro limits set for thawed fish.

 

Dear dj.escalante,

 

Well, if you monitor yr thawing medium to remain under 5degC, or in the limit 10degC, you may well find the micro.level in yr thawed product is not raised too much. Especially if the thawing time is short, eg 10 minutes (not familiar with milk fish / fillets[?]). if significantly otherwise (and depending on the thawing time / input quality)  you may be in for a surprise if you ever check it.

 

Some people tend to assume the cooking stage will solve all previous errors. Risky logic IMEX.

 

Do you have micro.limits for yr cooked, frozen (?) finished product [?] ? eg TPC < 10,000, <100,000, <1M ?

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[dj.E]

Dear dj.escalante,

 

Well, if you monitor yr thawing medium to remain under 5degC, or in the limit 10degC, you may well find the micro.level in yr thawed product is not raised too much. Especially if the thawing time is short, eg 10 minutes (not familiar with milk fish / fillets[?]). if significantly otherwise (and depending on the thawing time / input quality)  you may be in for a surprise if you ever check it.

 

Some people tend to assume the cooking stage will solve all previous errors. Risky logic IMEX.

 

Do you have micro.limits for yr cooked, frozen (?) finished product [?] ? eg TPC < 10,000, <100,000, <1M ?

 

Rgds / Charles.C

 

Due to limited thawing rooms, we initially planned to use running water at 2-4degC. The fish is packed in its original pack so there's no contact with the water.

However someone from our R&D said that this practice is no longer recognized as safe, like in the U.S. This really confused me as I believe this is a generally accepted method of thawing, provided done and monitored properly.

 

I tried looking for publications or updates in the internet for thawing and came up with nothing of what the R&D claims. Are anyone aware of such update?

 

We do have micro limits for frozen raw fish and cooked finished product. It's only the thawed fish micro limits, which we do not have. I'll surely keep this in mind and may suggest our team to gather data on this. Thanks Charles C.