20 replies to this topic

[taein6022]

Good evening,

 

We are trying to get both BRC and SQF certifications for our factory.

 

However, we can't find how many QA specialists are required for one factory.

 

Currently, our factory has only 20 employees, but we will extend a factory with

 

maximum 50 employees until 2020.

 

I have heard that each audit requires different number of specialists, and 

 

we only have an one QA specialist who is going to learn about these audits from

 

consultants later.

 

 

 

  

 

 

[Charles.C]

Good evening,

 

We are trying to get both BRC and SQF certifications for our factory.

 

However, we can't find how many QA specialists are required for one factory.

 

Currently, our factory has only 20 employees, but we will extend a factory with

 

maximum 50 employees until 2020.

 

I have heard that each audit requires different number of specialists, and 

 

we only have an one QA specialist who is going to learn about these audits from

 

consultants later.

 

Not too sure what you mean by "audit", "specialists" but, just for example, HACCP requires a multi-disciplinary team, eg representatives from quality control, production, engineering sections, etc

 

It likely also relates to yr product/process.

 

You need to read the FS Standard

[taein6022]

Not too sure what you mean by "audit", "specialists" but, just for example, HACCP requires a multi-disciplinary team, eg representatives from quality control, production, engineering sections, etc

 

It likely also relates to yr product/process.

 

You need to read the FS Standard

 

 

Thank you for your information Mr. C. 

 

I think you got the idea about what I have said, so both SQF and BRC require the same requirements as HACCP?

 

Currently, we have an one person who is in charge of quality control and production and I have heard that when SQF or BRC auditors came

 

to our factory for auditing, we must have certain amount representatives from quality assurance, and I'm really not sure how many people do we

 

have to hire for getting certificate.

 

Again, thank you for your information Mr. C, I hope you have a great day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pHruit]

There is no specific number of QA people needed for BRC - for your own business needs (aside from certification questions) it needs to be proportionate to the scale of your operations, and sufficient to achieve your system/business requirements.
If you had 2000 staff then 1 QA person would probably be insufficient, but for a team of 20 people it may well be enough. Do you feel that you have enough resource to operate correctly? If so, you don't need to hire more people. If not then you should possibly recruit.

The first time we did BRC I was the only member of the QA/Technical team. 11 years later it's certainly useful having a team of people reporting to me whom I can ask to discuss specific areas with the auditor, or go and run the trace exercise etc while the audit continues, but it's not essential for a small business.
The auditor will want to speak to people who can explain what you do and how the systems work in the areas they are looking at - they don't care a great deal about job title (with the exception of specific requirements for "senior" management, and reporting structures being defined etc), but you'll need to make members of other departments aware that they will need to get involved, e.g. your production manager for the site tour etc.

[Charles.C]

There is no specific number of QA people needed for BRC - for your own business needs (aside from certification questions) it needs to be proportionate to the scale of your operations, and sufficient to achieve your system/business requirements.
If you had 2000 staff then 1 QA person would probably be insufficient, but for a team of 20 people it may well be enough. Do you feel that you have enough resource to operate correctly? If so, you don't need to hire more people. If not then you should possibly recruit.

The first time we did BRC I was the only member of the QA/Technical team. 11 years later it's certainly useful having a team of people reporting to me whom I can ask to discuss specific areas with the auditor, or go and run the trace exercise etc while the audit continues, but it's not essential for a small business.
The auditor will want to speak to people who can explain what you do and how the systems work in the areas they are looking at - they don't care a great deal about job title (with the exception of specific requirements for "senior" management, and reporting structures being defined etc), but you'll need to make members of other departments aware that they will need to get involved, e.g. your production manager for the site tour etc.

 

Hi pHruit,

 

There are so many unknown variables / interpretations in the OP.

 

Just as an example, for 3rd World Facilities exporting seafood to the EC, a  specific internal  "laboratory"  is usually (Regulatory)  mandated. I would designate Laboratory Personnel as "QA Specialists".

 

i suppose a "QA Manager" could still run the whole show but IMEX the total is invariably > 1.

 

it just depends.

[pHruit]

Hi Charles,
Yes, I agree it's very much a "what is the correct length for a piece of string" question at present, but BRC itself doesn't stipulate anything more specific than "the company's senior management shall provide the human and financial resources required to produce food safely and in compliance with the requirements of this Standard". A regulatory requirement would be a requirement of the standard, but first and foremost it would be a regulatory requirement.
The OP's post read as if they'd been told that it's necessary to have some sort of massive team at the beck and call of the auditor, and we've probably all audited factories that take this approach (seems to be more prevalent in some areas than others) where you arrive and presumably are supposed to be reassured/impressed that there are so many QA/QC/Regulatory etc staff available for the audit. Alas I'm not entirely convinced as to the strength of correlation between the size of these massive teams and the actual capabilities and standards of systems and processes  

[Charles.C]

Agreed but Regulatory trumps BRC. And SQF.

 

Product / Business is unknown.

[pHruit]

Agreed but Regulatory trumps BRC. And SQF.

Yes, this is what I'd meant by "a regulatory requirement is a regulatory requirement". I'd assume the world takes it as a given that this is more fundamental than any and all certification requirements, but then having seen how excitable some people can get about BRC et al it's perhaps an unfounded assumption...

[Charles.C]

Yes, this is what I'd meant by "a regulatory requirement is a regulatory requirement". I'd assume the world takes it as a given that this is more fundamental than any and all certification requirements, but then having seen how excitable some people can get about BRC et al it's perhaps an unfounded assumption...

 

TBH, I missed the comment you refer. My bad.

 

If "excited" includes "depressed" then I agree.

[Hank Major]

I would say that it would be easy to have two people who can conduct the internal audits on each other's work. But they don't have to be full-time food safety people, they just need to have had the proper training.

[taein6022]

Thank you for the information Mr. pHruit 

 

We would probably train all the employees with HACCP level 2 and the other employees such as QA, production operations, and technical management representatives with HACCP level 3 or 4.  

 

By the way, I don't know why, but our high-authorities want to get both BRC and SQF, and I think it is not necessary to get both of them. 

 

I want to hear about your opinion.

 

I hope you have a great one.

 

Best Regards,

 

 

There is no specific number of QA people needed for BRC - for your own business needs (aside from certification questions) it needs to be proportionate to the scale of your operations, and sufficient to achieve your system/business requirements.
If you had 2000 staff then 1 QA person would probably be insufficient, but for a team of 20 people it may well be enough. Do you feel that you have enough resource to operate correctly? If so, you don't need to hire more people. If not then you should possibly recruit.

The first time we did BRC I was the only member of the QA/Technical team. 11 years later it's certainly useful having a team of people reporting to me whom I can ask to discuss specific areas with the auditor, or go and run the trace exercise etc while the audit continues, but it's not essential for a small business.
The auditor will want to speak to people who can explain what you do and how the systems work in the areas they are looking at - they don't care a great deal about job title (with the exception of specific requirements for "senior" management, and reporting structures being defined etc), but you'll need to make members of other departments aware that they will need to get involved, e.g. your production manager for the site tour etc.

Edited by Charles.C, 02 February 2019 - 01:52 AM.

[Charles.C]

Thank you for the information Mr. pHruit 

 

We would probably train all the employees with HACCP level 2 and the other employees such as QA, production operations, and technical management representatives with HACCP level 3 or 4.  

 

By the way, I don't know why, but our high-authorities want to get both BRC and SQF, and I think it is not necessary to get both of them. 

 

I want to hear about your opinion.

 

I hope you have a great one.

 

Best Regards,

 

Please explain what you mean by Levels, 2,3,4

 

The choice of BRC or SQF or Both is often dictated by what yr customers require. Different geographical areas often "prefer" different Standards, eg UK > BRC, USA > SQF.

 

It may relate to the "risk" status of the product but, IMEX,  BRC expect routine Production employees to be aware of the "significance" of  CCPs if they exist for their specific activity but not to require haccp training per se (cf Hygiene/GMP).

Edited by Charles.C, 02 February 2019 - 02:39 AM.
expanded

[SQFconsultant]

I really can not address the number of techs however I can say that SQF requires an SQF Practitioner that meets the requirements as noted in the 8.0 manual as well as a back up that mirrors those requirements. Both of which must have an intimate knowledge of the program.

[SQFconsultant]

By the way the Practitioner's don't learn on thr audits. They learn by getting into the system and living it everyday.

[pHruit]

Thank you for the information Mr. pHruit 

 

We would probably train all the employees with HACCP level 2 and the other employees such as QA, production operations, and technical management representatives with HACCP level 3 or 4.  

 

By the way, I don't know why, but our high-authorities want to get both BRC and SQF, and I think it is not necessary to get both of them. 

 

I want to hear about your opinion.

 

I hope you have a great one.

 

Best Regards,

 

I've adopted the same approach with HACCP, and everyone in the factory and in the product development teams is at least Level 2 trained. I'd also recommend internal training on top of this as it helps put the principles into the context of what you're actually manufacturing.

 

As others have advised, different regions seem to prefer different certification standards - the UK (and some of Europe) prefers BRC, whereas SQF is the stronger option for the US market. If you're chasing international sales then there may be some merit to implementing both, although there is usually some flexibility and recognition of equivalence between the various GFSI-benchmarked standards.

 

 

@Charles - Level 2/3/4 are "standardised" levels of HACCP training (at least in the UK), formerly known as Foundation, Intermediate and Advanced, respectively. These links for courses from Campen BRI give a reasonable overview:

https://www.campdenb...accp-foundation

https://www.campdenb...cp-intermediate

https://www.campdenb.../haccp-advanced

[Charles.C]

Hi pHruit,

 

Yes, thks, I appreciate the UK system.

 

Summarising -

 

(a) Seemingly the OP is in S.Korea ??

(b) Product still unknown.

(c) Process still unknown.

(d) Product destination is unknown.

 

Recapping -

 

(i) Currently, we have an one person who is in charge of quality control and production.

 

(ii) Currently, our factory has only 20 employees, but we will extend a factory with maximum 50 employees until 2020

 

(III) We are trying to get both BRC and SQF certifications for our factory

 

(iv) We would probably train all the employees with HACCP level 2 and the other employees such as QA, production operations, and technical management representatives with HACCP level 3 or 4.

 

 

IMO -

 

(i) is not a logical setup. However, as per (II),  it may well be acceptable for BRC  while noting Post 3 for SQF and, for both, above caveats (a-d)

(iv) adequacy (over or under)  is unknown due above (a-d) and Post 12. Obviously the scientific haccp capabilities/limitations of routine employees are also relevant.

 

@ Taein,

Please add some context as per above /  previous requests.

[taein6022]

Good morning Mr.C

 

(a) Seemingly the OP is in S.Korea ??

 

     - Our company is in the Southern California, and factory is in Oregon. However my nationality is South Korean, I thought I had to put my nationality in my profile.

 

(b) Product still unknown.

 

     - We make Korean style soup, ready meal (bowl), and dumplings.

 

(c) Process still unknown.

 

    -  can you give me an example about this question Mr. C? Do you want to know the regular processing order ?

 

 

(d) Product destination is unknown.

 

     - Mostly to West Coast region, and sometimes we export to South Korea.

 

 

To be honest, I'm an import coordinator of our company, but recently person who is in charge of this job has quit, so I had to take over...

 

We are going to hire consultants soon, but the high-authorities want to know the basic requirements of these certificates.

 

Again Thank you very much about your help and care Mr. C  .

[christiant]

Thank you for the information Mr. pHruit 

 

We would probably train all the employees with HACCP level 2 and the other employees such as QA, production operations, and technical management representatives with HACCP level 3 or 4.  

 

By the way, I don't know why, but our high-authorities want to get both BRC and SQF, and I think it is not necessary to get both of them. 

 

I want to hear about your opinion.

 

I hope you have a great one.

 

Best Regards,

 

 

Both follow the GFSI standard.  Are there two customers requiring differing standards in order to obtain business?  

[taein6022]

Currently, we are just "planning" to become a vendor of mainstream markets in the U.S. (e.g. Walmart, wholefoods market, Safeway, etc.)

 

do you recommend to get both certificates? or only one of them?

[Charles.C]

Good morning Mr.C

 

(a) Seemingly the OP is in S.Korea ??

 

     - Our company is in the Southern California, and factory is in Oregon. However my nationality is South Korean, I thought I had to put my nationality in my profile.

Thanks for Clarification. Thread now makes a bit more sense.

So is yr haccp 1,2,3 a US System or ?

 

(b) Product still unknown.

 

     - We make Korean style soup, ready meal (bowl), and dumplings.

Is the product RTE ( ready-to-eat) ?

 

(c) Process still unknown.

 

    -  can you give me an example about this question Mr. C? Do you want to know the regular processing order ?

Is the product/process RTE (implies more strict control requirements/complexity) ?

 

 

(d) Product destination is unknown.

 

     - Mostly to West Coast region, and sometimes we export to South Korea.

 

 

To be honest, I'm an import coordinator of our company, but recently person who is in charge of this job has quit, so I had to take over...

 

We are going to hire consultants soon, but the high-authorities want to know the basic requirements of these certificates.

 

Again Thank you very much about your help and care Mr. C  .

 

Hi taein,

 

The benefit of info. relating to product "context" is that (a) it increases the chance of getting relevant feedback since other posters may have direct experience of yr kind of product/process (b) it enables an evaluation  as to the risk status of system / likely control necessities.

 

Note that specific FS Standards will vary depending on whether Manufacturing or Storage/Distributing is Primary business.

[taein6022]

(a) Thanks for Clarification. Thread now makes a bit more sense.

So is yr haccp 1,2,3 a US System or ?

 

- yes sir, our HACCP is a US System.

 

(b) Is the product RTE ( ready-to-eat) ?

 

- yes sir, our products are Frozen RTE.

 

(Technically it is refrigerated, but we use blast freezer right after we make our products [to prevent spoilage during the transportation] , and currently we only make frozen soup in the factory,

but after we extend our factory in early 2020, we are going to produce more frozen foods [e.g. Frozen Bowl RTE, Dumplings, and Steamed Buns]. Also, we want to get those certificates around early 2020 before we start to produce new products except soups.)

 

(c)Is the product/process RTE (implies more strict control requirements/complexity) ?

 

- yes sir, Mr. C

 

Thank you for your help Mr. C :)

Edited by taein6022, 05 February 2019 - 09:56 PM.