13 replies to this topic

[chrisrushworth]

Hi

We have just been audited to BRCGS V9, retained our AA to happy with that.

 

The auditor commented on micro standards i have set being very close.

 

Im having issues when sending sampled "whipped" cream for micro testing.

 

I have set the limts to 10-2 (1 colony on a 2nd dilution), but seem to be getting results closer to 10-3?

We are high care cream based deserts... what would you guys say micro standards should be set to?

[Dorothy87]

hi :)

 

I would take data from last year (you should do this based on section 5.6.2) and review results from 2023 and 2024 unless you have a specific limits from retailers (Tesco, Asda, M&S etc) 

 

do you mean limits for Entero?

[chrisrushworth]

hi :)

 

I would take data from last year (you should do this based on section 5.6.2) and review results from 2023 and 2024 unless you have a specific limits from retailers (Tesco, Asda, M&S etc) 

 

do you mean limits for Entero?

 

Yeah its just the ents on the cream, that seems to be high but then on FP there back within tolerance.

 

I have done alot of challenge swabbing and sampling as i think its more likely operators rushing/bad practice which is leading to the high results...

 

Just wondering what limits other similar TM's have set...

[Dorothy87]

I have Sainsburys and we do test each batch with >5x10²cfu/g

[chrisrushworth]

I have Sainsburys and we do test each batch with >5x10²cfu/g

 

Thanks that the limits i have set now.

 

I think it needs to stay where it is as RTE goods.

 

Just need to drill into the operators procedures and concentrations....

 

TA :)    

[kingstudruler1]

100 - 1000 enterobacters per gram in cream seems high.  This is a purchased ingredient?  

 

Thinking back to my dairy production days,  anything would scare me.  I might not be understanding what you are talking about.  

[kconf]

I agree with kings. It makes no sense whatsoever to me. 

 

Your lab report should have the total count irrespective of dilution factor. 

[chrisrushworth]

100 - 1000 enterobacters per gram in cream seems high.  This is a purchased ingredient?  

 

Thinking back to my dairy production days,  anything would scare me.  I might not be understanding what you are talking about.  

 

The CoA from the supplier seems to always be less than 100.

 

From pallicon i have results of around 1 to 5 CFU!

 

Once through the whipper im having OOS results such as 560 so on a second dilution is this is a count of 56.

The limits for reporting i have set are anything above 100 or 10 counts on a second dilution.

 

As i stated, i dont think its the cream, i think its the operators rushing and not sterilising all parts when building the whipper or its the chemical dilution they are using is not high enough....

 

I was asking other technical managers what limits for entros they have set ..

 

Ie - less that 100 cfu 

 

Hope this makes more sense

[kconf]

Now what you are saying makes sense. But I have never seen one single colony of enterobacteria in finished product, so this is interesting. 

 

Refer to this article.

 

https://www.fsai.ie/...le.pdf?ext=.pdf

[kingstudruler1]

The CoA from the supplier seems to always be less than 100.

 

From pallicon i have results of around 1 to 5 CFU!

 

Once through the whipper im having OOS results such as 560 so on a second dilution is this is a count of 56.

The limits for reporting i have set are anything above 100 or 10 counts on a second dilution.

 

As i stated, i dont think its the cream, i think its the operators rushing and not sterilising all parts when building the whipper or its the chemical dilution they are using is not high enough....

 

I was asking other technical managers what limits for entros they have set ..

 

Ie - less that 100 cfu 

 

Hope this makes more sensey 

Yes, that makes sense.   Any finding on a 1:10 dilution is probaby cause for concern for me.   Enterobacters like coliform are an indicator of being processed under unsanitary conditions and conditions being favorable for pathogenic bacteria.   

 

The number is a little arbitrary to me.  Are you looking for a number that is a sell / no sell limit?  or something to put on a spec sheet?

[Tony-C]

Im having issues when sending sampled "whipped" cream for micro testing.

 

I have set the limts to 10-2 (1 colony on a 2nd dilution), but seem to be getting results closer to 10-3?

We are high care cream based deserts... what would you guys say micro standards should be set to?

 

AA is very good, well done 

The levels you are quoting don't sound right. Please confirm if this is TVC or Entero?

Also, if you are getting a colony count of 1 or 10 then the dilution is not accurate, you need a dilution where the colony count on the plate is between 30 and 300 for it to be accurate.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

I have Sainsburys and we do test each batch with >5x10²cfu/g

 

Did you mean greater than 500cfu/g? if so is that for rejecting the batch?

For what test TVC? Entero? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

[chrisrushworth]

AA is very good, well done 

The levels you are quoting don't sound right. Please confirm if this is TVC or Entero?

Also, if you are getting a colony count of 1 or 10 then the dilution is not accurate, you need a dilution where the colony count on the plate is between 30 and 300 for it to be accurate.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

 

Did you mean greater than 500cfu/g? if so is that for rejecting the batch?

For what test TVC? Entero? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

Its once through the whipping machine the entros have increased.

All food contact parts have been washed and sterilised prior to use.

Un-sure as to next steps...

[Dorothy87]

AA is very good, well done 

The levels you are quoting don't sound right. Please confirm if this is TVC or Entero?

Also, if you are getting a colony count of 1 or 10 then the dilution is not accurate, you need a dilution where the colony count on the plate is between 30 and 300 for it to be accurate.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

 

Did you mean greater than 500cfu/g? if so is that for rejecting the batch?

For what test TVC? Entero? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

To report, greater than, but the target was <10 cfu/g - @chrisrushworth - apologies !, Tony - thank you ! 

[Tony-C]

Its once through the whipping machine the entros have increased.

All food contact parts have been washed and sterilised prior to use.

Un-sure as to next steps...

 

Hi chrisrushworth,

 

You need to look at how you are using your pallecons of cream, make sure that appropriate hygienic procedures are being used when connecting to the pallecon. Also if you disconnect and reuse later, how that is handled.

 

With regards to the ‘whipper’, if that is manually cleaned then you could look at washing in an ‘Industrial Dishwasher’.

I have had tailored versions that I used for cleaning if machine parts that were not part of a CIP cycle. I found this far more effective and consistent than manual cleaning and the parts had a hot water disinfection cycle.

 

As you have said you need to keep an eye on the reassembly process and ensure that operators follow hygienic procedures. ATP swabs might be useful in ensuring there is some focus on both cleaning and reassembly.

 

Regarding your Entero counts if you are getting results of 1 then you need to go down at least 1 dilution. Also if you are getting counts of 100 or greater then you probably should be testing for E.coli as well.

 

Finally, from your results and the COAs there appears to be consistent contamination in the pallecon and so that is an area I would tackle as well. I would expect a pallecon of cream to be < 10/g Enteros, so it might be worth visiting your supplier as well.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

Edited by Tony-C, 16 October 2024 - 03:45 AM.