24 replies to this topic

[NemesisMiss]

I have an employee that refuses to listen to anyone about violating a policy we have in place. We do not allow headphones to be used on the production room floor for both food safety and product secrecy. Almost every day he has it in his ear and one of the managers has to tell him to remove it and put it in his locker. I have sat down with him twice to explain why it is a food safety risk, his direct manager has had a conversation or two with him about it, and HR has spoken with him about it on a number of occasions. I don't know how or what consequences can be given to him because it would be an even bigger problem if we have to fire him for violation of this policy. 

 

Any suggestions on what consequences we can use to enforce this policy that does not have to resort to firing him? 

 

 

Thanks, at this point any suggestions are helpful!

[SQFconsultant]

Our GMP'S spell out the consequences- failure to follow these requires can result in termination of employment.  Hopefully yiu have something like that abd based on that ... fire the employee. 

[NemesisMiss]

I agree with the firing of the employee if he continues to violate this policy, however, that in its own way would be causing a whole new issue of having to hire a new person. And because it is so hard to find competent and knowledgeable compounders in my state for 25$ an hour, it seems like it would not be worth it. Any ideas on how to reprimand or consequence the employee w/o having to resort to firing him? 

 

I would love to think this would be an easy fix, however, I am not very good with confrontation and do not like to reprimand or call people out even though I should be more comfortable in doing so. I have only been SQF and QA/QC Manager for about three and a half months and the employee is even older than me by 13 years. 

 

Thank you for your response, I do appreciate it

 

Justine 

[GMO]

You could reward the behaviour you DO want but this is way past that. 

 

Just start on a disciplinary process.  I know in the US that there is a very different process to the UK but the root (etymology) of the word "disciplinary" is about learning (discipulus is Latin for "learner") and the intent of disciplinary is not to dismiss someone but to change their behaviour. 

 

If this was the UK we would approach this first with a "file note" which is not formal disciplinary but is a note to say "I've had a conversation with the person about their behaviour and the need to change."  This helps you if you need to go further.

 

Secondly, if the behaviour doesn't improve, you'd do a disciplinary investigation (or rather an independent manager would).  They'd sit that person down, ask them to explain what happened, get witness statements if necessary which it probably would be in this case, you'd need to get evidence of when this person has broken the rules.  That manager then recommends if disciplinary is advised.  Probably yes.  You'd then sit down with the employee who would have the right to be accompanied, present the evidence, then decide if a sanction is warranted and at what level if it is.  Probably for this it would be at the first level which would be "verbal warning".  Despite the words, you'd still then put it in writing, how long it's valid for, what for etc and put on file.

 

If within that timescale, they contravene the rule again, you'd rinse and repeat working your way up to written warning, final written warning then dismissal.

 

Yes it's onerous and part of our history of strong union involvement in the workplace but actually in this case, I don't think you'd get further than written warning before the behaviour changed or the person decided to leave.

 

Could you take some of that approach?  I know you're not obliged to in the US but even if it's just to sit down with the person and understand "look, why is it you are not following this rule, I want to understand?"  It might be something that they really feel stressed, bored, etc and want music to pass the day.  If they're a great employee in other ways, it might be that there are compromises to be had.  Music in the workplace, a change of role to one they find more challenging etc.

 

Not all employees see the British system as fair nor as genuinely a way to solve a problem rather than get rid of someone but I've had multiple employees who have been on disciplinaries or performance improvement plans who have then come off them and been great employees.  I've had even more I've just had a quiet word with about an issue and that's been enough.

[GMO]

I have sat down with him twice to explain why it is a food safety risk

 

So sorry, I meant to include this quote in my reply.

 

It's so important that you ask why and probably ask more than once.  Even if it feels like a stupid reason to you, listen.

[Scampi]

He clearly believes rules do not apply to him

 

The company doesn't have a progressive discipline policy? 

 

BTW  very rarely do companies fire people, people get themselves fired by not following the rules of work repeatedly 

 

I have an employee who received a 5 day suspension for repeated GMP infractions---at some point it's their decision as adults, and not a simple oversight

[TimG]

Are there any bonuses above their hourly rate that they receive? Pay increases based on performance?

That's just handling it with kids gloves though. This sounds like discipline is the correction required. Has he been written up yet? Do you have escalation steps in your policy, as Glen asked?

A week off WITHOUT pay might help him realize he needs the job. Or it might help him realize he doesn't..

[jfrey123]

Make sure those meetings you mentioned are documented.  If not, catch him in the act again and document the occurrences.  Temp suspensions are a bridge between flat out firing vs trying to show your company is serious about enforcing SOP.

 

Last time I was in a role to enforce things at this level I gave a guy a written warning about taking tools without checking them out properly after two verbal warnings.  When he did it again, I told my production manager he needed the rest of the day off.  So I wrote it up again, reviewed it with the employee and told him he can clock out and go home.  Guy never came back so it worked out.

[MDaleDDF]

"I have an employee that refuses to listen to anyone about violating a policy we have in place."

 

After one warning and a repeat offense, I fire this person immediately, no questions asked. 

[kconf]

Think from the perspective of the employee. Does he wish to be terminated and is doing so with an intent to collect unemployment or other benefits? Why else would someone do that in the current job market? 

[TimG]

Think from the perspective of the employee. Does he wish to be terminated and is doing so with an intent to collect unemployment or other benefits? Why else would someone do that in the current job market? 

They live with their parents; they are in an area with low employee availability; they don't have kids or excessive bills.

I haven't worked in a job market where employee supply outstripped demand since the 2000's.

[kconf]

Are you serious about the second statement? Employee supply has never outstripped job fillings since 2000s? 

[Lynx42]

We has something similar, but straight phone use while operating non-food contact equipment, by an employee who has been here 15+ years.  We have it on camera.

1st was a verbal warning. (although a know more than one person talked to him about it, but officially it was just one verbal.)

2nd was a written warning.

3rd was a one day off no-pay and when he returned his phone had to be on his boss's desk every day for a month or he'd be sent home with no pay. 

4th he will be terminated.  

 

New employees (less than 2 years when we started cracking down on phone use) are told:

1st offense written warning, 1 day suspension, and phones must be turned in at the office during working hours (can get it for breaks and lunch).  Termination if any damage occurs to equipment or product.

2nd offense they are terminated.

We had someone put someone else in a life threatening situation while on their phone, and we got lucky, so management is not messing around regarding phone use.

 

We do give limited permission based on need.  An employee had a family member in the hospital in critical condition.  He had permission to answer his phone with the requirements that he come to a complete stop and set his parking brake before answering.  

[TimG]

Are you serious about the second statement? Employee supply has never outstripped job fillings since 2000s? 

Completely serious. The amount of response to job postings I have received has gone down considerably. Quite a bit of that is location based I'm sure, right now I'm in the middle of no-where. When I first started managing, I'd put an ad in the paper (yeah, early 2000's) for a parts delivery driver position and have a STACK of applications. Easily 70-80 aps to go through if not more.

If I add up the last 4 job positions I posted, I don't even have 50 applications all together received. And for skilled positions (quality tech) I received 1 resume where the person had ever set foot in a lab environment previously. Did a pay survey, offered that one person who set foot in a lab the job at 1 buck more an hour than average, and she resigned 2 months later because (among other reasons) she 'can easily make 300-500 a night bartending.'

I think I need to look into bartending.

[kconf]

Hahaha. I agree. There are some fun, easy jobs that may not sound fancy but can get you more money. Bartending is one of them. I hear servers take home decent money too. I guess world works differently than I vision. 

[GMO]

It's tough to get staff in the UK too, at least decent ones.

 

Personally I find it surprising all of the "book him Danno" types.  Absolutely I would if he persists.  But perhaps it's years of having grown up with UK labour laws that I'd at least try and find out why they're breaking the rules.

 

But then that's just made me think of one of my favourite quotes from UK parliament regarding a certain Mr Johnson when he was found to have broken Covid rules.  Perhaps this does match what your errant operator is like?  Either way, they'd get one chance from me first to explain.  Then I'd be finding my inner Theresa May and going for the jugular...  

 

Theresa May asks Boris Johnson if he thought he was exempt from rules

[Hoosiersmoker]

If you've determined ear buds are a food safety issue but you don't enforce the rule, you're looking at a potential major violation at your next audit as well as additional deductions for Food Safety Culture. I'm not trying to tell you what your job is, but in my case it is to act in the best interest of the company that pays me to do so and any violation because some guy thinks he needs his tunes at all times isn't worth the 15 point deduction, the headache, the dissent of the other employees who actually follow the rules, my job because of the unnecessary 15 point deduction, or the potential flack from our customers. You have to ask yourself if the damage it could cause you is worth the risk? Don't make it personal, a rule is a rule and you can survive that employee getting himself fired. It will also send the right message to the rest of the employees - "We're serious about Food Safety" or are you?

[Harminnie]

Due to similar issues we have staff leave their phones in a designated holder away from production before they enter production. They can collect them for lunch. They are told if there is a true emergency their kids /schools/spouses etc.  can call the office. Problem went away. We don't have a real large staff to have to worry about someone's phone being ripped off. Our issue was just with phones....ear buds would be a hard no.  Our problem child recently left voluntarily after I instituted the holder policy (and stuck to it without exception) and we replaced him with a breath of fresh air! Good luck, but your earbuds gotta go!

[NemesisMiss]

Wow, thank you all for the responses! I loved and read each and every post! I would like to clarify a few things so that the topic can be discussed a bit more in specifics. He is not listening to music; he is talking on the phone. We have 2 radios out in the warehouse, and we encourage employees to listen to music, at a reasonable volume, to boost morale. And there have been times where we have sat down and explained why ear buds are not permitted in the production area/warehouses. It is not just for food safety; it's for personal safety and product secrecy. We make flavors and talking to someone on the phone while making a product could potentially put trade secrets in jeopardy of being disclosed unintentionally. He even has signed an NDA as well as a cell phone policy when he first was hired, so it's not as if we do not have policies in place. Today, I put up signs before the warehouse entry and door stating, in both Spanish and English, Cellphones and earbuds are not permitted beyond this point. I am hoping that will be a gentle reminder to leave them in his locker from now on, but only time will tell.

 

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions because I have had the same thoughts as some, I just was worried that the ideas were a bit off in left field. So, knowing that I am not alone in this is even helping me understand how to handle it in a positive manor. 

 

 

Much Appreciated

 

Justine

[NemesisMiss]

Oh, and we just had our SQF audit, and we received an 89. Not too shabby for my first time and only having 3 months to prepare!

 

:)

[kconf]

Congrats! 

[GMO]

Brilliant, well done.

 

So sorry because I do realise I'm coming across as Mr Softy on this because I do keep asking... but if your guy is making calls, have you quietly taking him to one side and asked why?  

 

I'm also a mental health first aider and sometimes there really is a valid reason.  Sometimes there isn't.  But I ALWAYS like to give someone the chance.  We had someone once who took their phone into production because their grandmother was really ill.  I'm just saying rule it out.  Just come out and ask "is there a reason why you feel like you need to be able to make calls because I really want to understand?"  That way you can then go for a tougher approach in full knowledge you've really tried.  With everything going on in the US right now, I do not underestimate the worry some people and some communities have around members of their family.  Or he might be being a d**k, but I would hate myself if I found out later there was something serious going on and I could have helped him stay in contact another way.

[NemesisMiss]

Hello! 

 

Don't apologize! You are just trying to get the full scope of the situation, and I appreciate you asking and I am more than happy to help in transparency. Information is power, so thank you for doing it. We are a very small company, only 7 employees. Our lockers are 5 feet away from the production area and every employee knows that if you are waiting on an important phone call, or if it is an emergency, you are more than welcome to step out of the production area and take that call without reprimand. We understand if people are waiting to hear back from a doctor or if someone has a loved one that is not doing well or in the hospital and will allow a phone to be answered if it is important or necessary. I do know a few times it was family, however, the majority of the time, it is females that he is "talking to" if you catch my drift. It is just the whole ear bud in one ear and talking on the phone that makes it so non-food safe and not personally safe either. I know how hard it is to miss an important phone call because you are not allowed to talk on the phone at previous jobs I have had, but I would like to think that since we are not a large industrial company, that allowing employees to be able to step out of the production area is totally O.K. and understandable. 

 

Thanks for asking!

[Jacqui]

So HR are involved an still no change - very concerning.  What about the owner, CEO, MD, whoever is head of the company?  Are they aware?

 

This is a food safety risk but also an OH&S risk.

 

Food safety issue - putting the consumer at risk (and therefore the company and everyone's jobs)

OH&S issue - putting their safety and the safety of other workers at risk (and therefore the company and everyone's jobs)

 

Have you explained the consequence of injury, illness and death from their behaviour?

Sounds like it might be a one off but if there are no consequences what is next.   

Like others have said, important to understand reasons.  If personal issues outside of work, you can always put something in place so calls happen outside of manufacturing areas.  Otherwise repeated behaviour documented by HR really has no place in food manufacturing and unfortunately the employee should be shown the door.  Personally my job is not worth it when someone else is allowed to break food safety rules without consequence.  

[GMO]

I do know a few times it was family, however, the majority of the time, it is females that he is "talking to" if you catch my drift. It is just the whole ear bud in one ear and talking on the phone that makes it so non-food safe and not personally safe either. 

 

Ok, I can be soft as hell but this is sending my spidey senses running.  I think he has a side hustle and not necessarily a legal one.  Sit the owner down as suggested above, point out the health and safety and food safety risks and you're going to have to go down the disciplinary and potential dismissal route, however much pain that causes in such a small company.