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#1 a_andhika

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 04:14 AM

Dear All,

Does anyone knows where I can buy a food grade NaoH/caustic soda? At South East Asia region is preferred. We need it for pH adjustment purpose in one of our process. Many thanks.


Regards,


Arya


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#2 AS NUR

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 06:40 AM

dear arya..

as I know, there is no NaOH food grade... but IMO you can use high purity NaOH to adjust your pH or another chemical like Sodium Bicarbonate or Sodium carbonate...


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#3 Charles.C

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 08:06 AM

Dear Arya,

This is a deceptively simple request IMEX :thumbup: . It also surely relates partly to yr exact process which not mentioned.

Do you actually hv a particular specification in mind already ? eg minimum purity, maximum heavy metals, etc ? Probably not I guess ?

There are a variety of “definers” of food grade. One recognised source is as stated in FCC (Food Chemicals Codex) which IMEX and, as AS NUR implies, is a highly selective compilation. On that basis, this link ( http://www.voigtglob...essages/18.html ) probably contains yr desired spec (…..FCC). From memory, USP grade is also direct equivalent (P being Pharmacopoeia) ( http://en.wikipedia....s_Pharmacopoeia ), eg as per this incomplete NaOH extract http://chestofbooks....U-S-P-Naoh.html

As indicated by the 1st link (note the ACS mention), other (branded?) products such as high grade analytical reagents may be acceptable. I’m not sure how the “approved” for food use officially works for them since they are not specifically aimed at food use and you can see the specs are not identical, some things being unspecified like As. AR grade is another possibility. I think their (where matching) specs for common reagents like NaOH are usually equal or better than existing FCC ones but maybe not always. :dunno:

As to where to buy, my guess is the fcc label may indeed not be so easy to locate (and perhaps the USP also ). However, if acceptable, ACS, AR grades are readily available from suppliers. Problem may be cost but this relates to yr intended quantity of usage.

Very interested to see more answers since I hv met similar problems.

Rgds / Charles.C


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#4 a_andhika

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 11:08 AM

Dear AS Nur & Charles C.,

Thank you very much for your respond. Yes, I knew these kind of questions will pop up. Thats why I love this forum:)

Actually, we found a lot of difficulties to found the "Food Grade" one. Most of chemical supplier in our country also claim that there is no such thing as Food Grade NaOH. But we found one (sorry I cant tell it in here), that more and less fullfill our needs. Well I admit it doesnt declare as straight as "this chemical is a food grade substance", but judging from it MSDS, we found it may met our expectation. However, unfortunately, it imposed a high cost.

I've browsed the IT too, and I found something like:

http://www.aaa-chemi...hyfogr50po.html

Still, I am not sure does it really "Food Grade". Besides, its far away from here, and may imposed a high cost too. After see some references from Charles C., I certainly sure that a Food Grade NaOH is really occur on this planet. And I guess it named as Sodium Hydroxide FCC or Lye. After a quick browse, I found some interesting links:

http://www.generalch...-NF-FCC_PDS.pdf


About the specs, I think my RM should be similar like this:

http://www.sciencela.../S/PVAR/SLS1081


As for the process.... We will use it to increase the pH of Meat Extraction compound into neutral state. Another hint may come in the next posts ;)


Regards,


Arya


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#5 Hongyun

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 02:58 PM

As for the process.... We will use it to increase the pH of Meat Extraction compound into neutral state. Another hint may come in the next posts ;)


I think I might have abit of an idea on the process... But we shall wait for your next "hint" to come up. :)

We were searching for "Food Grade" NaOH awhile ago, but of coz, supplier will tell us there is no such thing as FG NaOH as it is dangerous material... But at least the heavy metal part should fall between the range of acceptable "Food grade" range, IMO.

USP grade on the other hand, though pure, is not cost effective...

@AS NUR,

Sodium Bicarbonate is not strong enough to increase the pH for the process, compared to 95%-100.5% conc NaOH.

Edited by Hongyun, 24 March 2009 - 03:42 PM.

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#6 Charles.C

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 03:31 PM

Dear Arya,

The whole subject of food ingredients / food additives as you know is highly complicated. A general explanation (USA) of how the evaluation of GRAS and food grade is made is here -

http://www.mindfully...t-Petitions.htm

The heavy metals part which I guess is most immediately relevant here is discussed -

http://www.usp.org/p...eavyMetals4.pdf

I remember posting various European EC equivalent articles here in the past. As illustrated in the recent melamine issue, the theoretical process of defining maximum limits is sort of "standardised" but seemingly far from globalised. :smile:

Well I admit it doesnt declare as straight as "this chemical is a food grade substance",


I appreciate yr comment regarding the use of MSDS sheet however if the supplier of an intended (direct) potential food ingredient is unable to provide me an official specification which includes the words "food grade", I prefer to not proceed (added - very rarely I hv used "work-arounds", eg arranged validating analyses myself.) In many countries, any supplier additionally / legally requires an officially (locally) certificated document to support such classification although they may not publicise this fact. IMEX, this area is a favourite audit check point and rightly so.

Rgds / Charles.C
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#7 MRios

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Posted 24 March 2009 - 05:06 PM

Dear Arya,
Do you have to use NaOH? could you use lime (CaO)? Lime is used to nixtamalize corn, that is later ground into dough (masa) for making tortillas, nachos, taco shells, etc. It´s also used to make sugar from beets.
It seems that there are providers of food grade lime, though most of them are probably in the US (because most nixtamalized corn is eaten in Mexico and Central America). There is a major tortilla producer that has operations in China and Malaysia; maybe someone working there can help you.
Hope this helped and wasn´t too off topic.


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#8 AS NUR

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:16 AM

dear Hongyun..

Yes you'r right.. i just give another opinion to increase pH according to "FG" NaOH... NaHCO3 is more common to use in food industry compare with NaOH...

Just Info.. in CIP process NaOH use as one of chemical cleaning ussualy use for remove organic material from the Line, EC Fat, with saponification reaction.

Just currious.. Arya If you use NaOH in meat production, is it no effect to your product taste ? is it possibvle to chnge NaOH with another material?


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#9 a_andhika

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 03:08 AM

Dear All,

Thank you very much for the replies. I guess I need to describe a bit more about the process:

We are trying to extracting the flavor from meat material, such as chicken meat. The first step is size reduction and then cooked in certain time and temperature. After that, we hydrolize it by using enyzme. During the previous process that I've mentioned, the pH is decreasing around 3-4. Before entering the next process, which is Maillard reaction, the material should be prepared first, so the next process will runs smoothly. The preparation that I mean is pH adjustment. Maillard reaction would goes properly on pH about 5.5. Thats why we need a base compound.


Slightly OT, we've try KOH as another susbtitute, but the result didnt met the expectation. The Mrios's post remind me on my previous company. We use CaO to cook the corn. But I am afraid we cant apply it on Meat Extraction, since it will affecting the taste (IMO). As matter of fact, the NaOH usage is not affecting the taste. Instead it really suit for our product. As for the NaHCO3 is really good at providing a good texture on cakes or bread, but I dont think its strong enough to increase the pH in such complicated reaction.

Yes, I really think we need a material that really declare that its safe for food purpose (and also the heavy metal things). Eventhough its a FG kind, I dont think NaOH will be granted as GRAS. So the declaration must be as clear as crystal. Thats why I am looking some help from you guys... Oh well I admit that I need a supplier which may provide a better price too ;)


Regards,


Arya


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#10 Charles.C

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 06:47 AM

Dear Arya,

It looks like you are saying that you can only accept a product with the cost of a "commercial" grade but having composition matching food grade ?

Not so easy, I'm afraid :biggrin: but good luck anyway !

Rgds / Charles.C


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#11 GMO

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 12:48 PM

dear Hongyun..

Yes you'r right.. i just give another opinion to increase pH according to "FG" NaOH... NaHCO3 is more common to use in food industry compare with NaOH...


Totally what I was going to say but you got there first!

From a safety point of view as well, NaOH is incredibly corrosive, causes severe burns and is very corrosive on equipment (hence when you do titrations at school, you always put the acid into the burette because the base is more corrosive / damaging and pipettes are generally cheaper.) What's worse is when you buy NaOH, in pellet form, it looks so blooming innocuous!

I'm not sure clearly what you're using it for but if there's a risk of any dilute NaOH left, I would not use it. NaHCO3 (aka sodium bicarbonate) has been used for years as a raising agent (aka bicarb, baking soda) and is destroyed by heat. It does produce CO2 on contact with acids but at least if there's any left on your product, you'll only get a slightly salty, maybe fizzy sensation, not burning...
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#12 GMO

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 12:59 PM

Now you've described the product more, I cannot, in any way agree that using NaOH would be safe. It might be easier to use a stronger base like NaOH or KOH to neutralise the process but it doesn't make it right. It's a bit of a sledge hammer to smash a nut. Just like in a food product, if you want to acidify something, you wouldn't use sulphuric acid, you'd use something more commonly used in foodstuffs or something which is found in low levels in foodstuffs (like vinegar, citric acid, malic acid etc) for making something more basic / alkaline it seems very wrong to me (as a former chemist) to go for something as extreme and dangerous as sodium hydroxide.

Both KOH and NaOH are used in small amounts in some cleaning agents (very low concentrations) but there are some kick a$$ warnings and recommendations on any skin contact.

Seriously, if you propose doing this, get authority from your local government authority and customers if nothing else. It has "huge public recall" or "national food safety disaster" written all over it for me.

The headline would be predictably sensationalist too considering one of the household uses for NaOH:

"Meat products contaminated with drain cleaner;
Factory deliberately contaminated meat to save money"

Not good. But then I lose sleep about people not wearing beard snoods.


Edited by GMO, 26 March 2009 - 01:02 PM.

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#13 Charles.C

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 01:55 PM

Dear GMO,

I agree with you that NaOH pellets are distinctly potent but you do find all kinds of "nasty" chemicals used in factories under proper control. Few examples -
The chemicals used for routine cleaning of oil fryers where you hv to heat them up as well although the liquid form helps to control.
Ammonia refrigeration systems can be quite unpleasant at times also.
Chlorine gas cylinders for water chlorination (must admit I was too nervous for that one, similarly ClO2 generators)

I regularly use NaOH pellets to clean my bathroom drain ! Not to good for copper pipes maybe.

Rgds / Charles.C

aded - and not to forget the nice, user-friendly toilet cleaners, 10 - 20 % conc. HCl from memory (+ very visible warning, if anybody notices it ?)

Sorry Arya, gettting a bit OT again. :smile:


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#14 MRios

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 02:15 PM

Dear Arya,
I agree with Charles and GMO. there´s something that doesn´t sound quite right about NaOH and food together. And like GMO said, there´s nothing the press loves more than a juicy story about how people are getting nasty chemicals in their food.
Of course, lime doesn´t sound too good either, especially if you take into account that it´s also used for whitewashing walls. However, I think that if all of us tortilla eaters haven´t died, but in fact have multiplied significantly, it isn´t too bad.
We have a saying in Spanish: don´t do good things that seem bad.
Hope everything turns out well for you.


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#15 Hongyun

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Posted 26 March 2009 - 03:17 PM

Hi guys,

I share your concern that NaOH and food doesn't really go hand in hand. Awhile back, a colleague and I were discussing about how his ex company pours bottles of poison into the reactor to get the product. (And mind you, the product was selling very well..) Thus, it seems like it is the norm to add NaOH for this process to produce good results.

Unfortunately, I did not partake in the formulation of the reaction and do not quite know the chemistry behind it. (Maybe Arya can enlighten us!)

But I did find some info on the use of NaOH in Maillard reaction.

multiplying yield of methylpyrazine by 10

effects of pH

@ GMO,

Now you've described the product more, I cannot, in any way agree that using NaOH would be safe. It might be easier to use a stronger base like NaOH or KOH to neutralise the process but it doesn't make it right. It's a bit of a sledge hammer to smash a nut. Just like in a food product, if you want to acidify something, you wouldn't use sulphuric acid, you'd use something more commonly used in foodstuffs or something which is found in low levels in foodstuffs (like vinegar, citric acid, malic acid etc) for making something more basic / alkaline it seems very wrong to me (as a former chemist) to go for something as extreme and dangerous as sodium hydroxide.


When acidifying food, there is no need for sulphuric acid as common acetic acid or citric acid can do the job. They bring down the pH to almost 2(?) very easily.

But for Sodium Bicarbonate, the pH range is about 6-8? And there is also the taste... Unlike acids, one of the more potent pH raisers is NaOH (pH range 13?), and we do not have something that is super high in pH and be considered in the "Food" category!

I'm guessing that the reaction somehow neutralizes the caustic effect and renders it safe in the final product. The final product usually has a slightly acidic pH by the end of the reaction.
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#16 AS NUR

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 01:17 AM

dear arya..

You have to consider about Sodium concentration in your product.. as I Know Na can effect to blod pressure for some people.. IMEX tha can be effect to your product taste...

NOw I using NaOH (± 1.5 %) For CIP process....


Edited by AS NUR, 27 March 2009 - 01:17 AM.

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#17 a_andhika

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:27 AM

Dear All,

Thank you very much. I dont think its technically OT, because I need to reassure what I am going to do is a "GRAS" thing, well yea includes the "commercial" thing too :)

This is really testing my guts. Again, does the FG NaOH really exist? Moreover, does it really safe for food purpose? I am lookin' for some new hints, and I found this:

http://cfr.vlex.com/...roxide-19707625

Based on that link, I have to revise my own statement, the NaOH actually (could be) granted as GRAS one. The keypoint is, the "Sodium hydroxide is prepared commercially by the electrolysis of sodium chloride solution and also by reacting calcium hydroxide with sodium carbonate." Perhaps, if the NaOH is made from Sodium carbonate, it will gives a "food grade" charateristic? Again, its only my speculation.

Another interesting parts from the document is:

"The affirmation of this ingredient as generally recognized as safe (GRAS) as a direct human food ingredient is based upon the following current good manufacturing practice conditions of use: (1) The ingredient is used as a pH control agent as defined in 170.3(o)(23) of this chapter and as a processing aid as defined in 170.3(o)(24) of this chapter."
And...
"The ingredient is used in foods at levels not to exceed current good manufacturing practice."

The question is, which GMP level that the document is sayin'? So I search again on the related documents and I found:

http://cfr.vlex.com/...d-gras-19707112

http://cfr.vlex.com/...itions-19706720

Still, not declaring the exact "numbers" that I want to. So I do some research again and I get this magic "1%" number (on the 10th section, page 5):

http://www.oxy.com/O...m_Hydroxide.pdf

Which eventually leads me on the further searching of the previous document:

http://cfr.vlex.com/...dified-19706090

So, even it only a case for modified food-starch, does it makes any sense that applying maximum of 1% FG NaOH is considered as a safe thing to do?


Regards,


Arya

PS: I am really grateful if someone could tell me where the heck I can buy this FG NaOH...


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#18 GMO

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 06:04 AM

I think you know my opinion on this by now but I don't think food grade NaOH can exist because however pure it is, it would cause severe burns in the consumer; ergo, it's not food grade!

There aren't many strongly alkali foodstuffs. Isn't there some kind of icelandic shark dish that's really high pH? Not sure your customers would like the flavour though.


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#19 Charles.C

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 12:14 PM

Dear Arya,

PS: I am really grateful if someone could tell me where the heck I can buy this FG NaOH...


As per my original post, USD80/kg, presumably FOB, stated to be with "exceptional" discounts for volume business.

No doubt you are seeeking USD8/kg :biggrin:

It all comes down to the product / product spec. / process of course. Perhaps yr proposed (running ?) process is already HACCP validated ?

Rgds / Charles.C
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#20 a_andhika

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 02:21 AM

Dear GMO and Charles C.,

Appreciate your comments. Thank you very much. Guess I need to accept this reality: Quality always comes with price.... But I'm also consider to use another alternative, to minimize the risk.


Regards,


Arya


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#21 Charles.C

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 04:28 AM

Dear Arya,

I hv found this” food grade” thread very interesting in the general sense :thumbup: . I had a look around on the web and there sure are a lot of “food grade” standards for different types of chemicals, ie issued by various official bodies. One more example, Codex food grade salt –

http://www.ceecis.or..._grade_salt.pdf

The sourcing problem also comes up in other forums, eg food grade sanitisers for washing vegetables –

http://foodbytesforu...amp;func=fb_pdf
(as you can see, the result was not very conclusive again)

Researchers hv also studied this problem in the safety context of different organisations using different criteria, eg choice of sodium hypochlorite for drinking water applications –

http://www.state.nj....sr/hypochlo.pdf

As you can see, you are certainly not alone in this matter ;) .

Regarding use of NaOH in foods, I also noticed this highly intriguing (promotionally oriented) clip on a supplier's website ?

Attached File  NaOH_in_foods.jpg   19.93KB   44 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C


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#22 GMO

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:57 PM

I used to work in chocolate, never once used NaOH....????

Erm, despite the fact I've been saying "it can't exist" I've just searched on google and found this with the first hit:

http://www.aaa-chemi...-hydroxide.html

"Our best grade of sodium hydroxide. Use for small batches of soap or biodiesel when the quality of the caustic matters most. Also use if: you have been having problems with the consistency of batches, formulate with hard-to-saponify oil blends, or employ sensitive essential oils. This grade is also Food Codex / FCC / Kosher certified, with a Certificate of Analysis included. Use for Pretzels, Olives, Lutefisk, Hominy or any other food use. All products are shipped in easy-to-store, easy-to-use resealable HPDE containers."

I stand corrected. That'll be an interesting HACCP study...!


Edited by GMO, 30 March 2009 - 07:59 PM.

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#23 GMO

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 08:01 PM

Also, not that Wikipedia is really the font of all knowledge but:

"Food preparation
Food uses of sodium hydroxide include washing or chemical peeling of fruits and vegetables, chocolate and cocoa processing, caramel color production, poultry scalding, soft drink processing, and thickening ice cream. Olives are often soaked in sodium hydroxide to soften them, while pretzels and German lye rolls are glazed with a sodium hydroxide solution before baking to make them crisp. Due to the difficulty in obtaining food grade sodium hydroxide in small quantities for home use, Sodium carbonate is often used in place of sodium hydroxide[8].

Specific foods processed with sodium hydroxide include:

The Scandinavian delicacy known as lutefisk (from lutfisk, "lye fish").
Hominy is dried maize (corn) kernels reconstituted by soaking in lye-water. These expand considerably in size and may be further processed by frying to make corn nuts or by drying and grinding to make grits. Nixtamal is similar, but uses calcium hydroxide instead of sodium hydroxide.
Sodium hydroxide is also the chemical that causes gelling of egg whites in the production of Century eggs.
German pretzels are poached in a boiling sodium carbonate solution or cold sodium hydroxide solution before baking, which contributes to their unique crust.
Most yellow coloured Chinese noodles are made with lye-water but are commonly mistaken for containing egg."

My hat is cheerfully eaten!


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#24 GMO

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 08:05 PM

WTF? It even has an "E" number??? I'm eating my glasses, tie and labcoat too!

http://www.food-info.net/uk/e/e524.htm


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#25 GMO

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 10:11 PM

Look! I've gone pale with the shame and embarrassment of failure!


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