11 replies to this topic

[maricmargot]

Hi Everyone!

I am new to this forum and glad I found this forum.
Does anyone know what traning must to do to be an external auditor for ISO 22k.
Thanks for everyone's feedbacks.

All the best!

[Charles.C]

Dear maricmargot,

Welcome to the forum

From Google, here is idea of necessary pre-knowledge and content of a training course -

http://www.uk.sgs.co...ning_course.htm

http://www.bsi-globa...itor-ISO-22000/

In addition the search function on this forum should assist yr query if not already done.

Rgds / Charles.C

[maricmargot]

Dear Charles,


thank you for your information.
I try to find some similary course in the next period.

All the best!

[maricmargot]

Dear Charles,



I have other two questions:



1. Is mandatory to have the lead auditor ISO 22K if I want to do the external audit (like certification body)? I want to be sure because in Romania the external audit is done by lead auditor ISO 9001.

How is in your country?



2. Last year our firm have implemented and certified ISO 22K and there was a big discussion about the OPRP`s and CCP.

What are the practice differences between OPRP’s and CCP?

I read a lot of materials about ISO 22K, but I did not understand very well what the differences in the practice between them.

Please, give me a practice example.



Thank you and all the best!

[Charles.C]

Dear maricmargot,

No1. Sorry, no idea, not my area.

No.2 - Maybe ref. below will help. There are also many discussions on this subject in the ISO 22000 forum but I agree with you that the topic is not so easy.

 iso_22000_concepts.PDF   381.73KB   191 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

added - these thread are also useful -

http://www.ifsqn.com...?showtopic=8952

http://www.ifsqn.com...?showtopic=9053

[maricmargot]

Dear Charles,


thank you for your information.

Now I have other question.

For identify CCP is necessary to use the decisional tree or only the assessment of control measure like in 7.6.2. ISO 22k?

Here in Romania was a big discussion about the 7.4.4.and 7.6.2. requirements but in this moment is not clarify yet.

All the best!

[Charles.C]

Dear maricmargot,

By definition, any HACCP analysis will surely require a risk assessment to determine CCPs. The precise method used, d-tree / matrix, whatever, is often optional but may depend on the specific text of the relevant standard involved and the particular product / process. Typically, use of oprps is not required and Codex / matrix type treatments are acceptable.

If you are referring to ISO 22000, I am not a user myself but the end of para.7.4.3 seems to fix part of the procedure requirements. Regarding the interpretation of 7.4.4, I get the feeling from previous comments in this forum that it is not always necessary to offer a detailed mathematical statement as per the examples in the threads I posted earlier, ie an extended version of a traditional HACCP analysis is acceptable to auditors. This may depend on the product / process again and yr geographical location perhaps.

As example, see Charlorne’s posted attachment in this thread -

http://www.ifsqn.com...?showtopic=3183
(But also see the later criticisms in same thread)

BTW, other people are welcome to add their comments, ( +) or ( -), particularly if they hv been audited of course,

Rgds / Charles.C

[maricmargot]

Dear Charles,



Sorry for my late answer.

I’ve red all the materials and I see different opinions about the assessment of control measures.

I see in one material that ORPR is similar with control point (CP) and I what to know what is your opinion about this.

Now I try to do the assessment of control measures by both methods to see if are deference.

All the best!

[Charles.C]

Dear maricmargot,

I see in one material that ORPR is similar with control point (CP) and I what to know what is your opinion about this.

Unfortunately my answer is again “grey”. From memory I hv seen both (+) and (-) opinions on this and it will obviously depend on yr interpretation of “control point”.
I think the term is undefined and unused in ISO22000, perhaps intentionally, so I guess that is my practical answer. Anybody any other opinions ??. There is also a specific thread on “control point” here if you search a bit which illustrates the wide variety of meanings.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Saviour]

Hi!!
There are different opinion about OPRP and CCP
What I could understand by implementing this system is that



CCP is point beyond that disaster (food safety hazard-adverse effect on health) can not be controlled.

OPRP is that where potential of disaster is high and if not controlled for long time it may lead to disaster.



In a nutshell: Both CCP and OPRP are critical.

By applying effective control measures we can ensure safety. But once CCP is deviated either product have to be destroyed or reworked in some cases if possible.



Where immediate result can be determined shall be taken as CCP

where immediate results can not be determined shall be taken as OPRP.

e.g.

Temperature monitoring can be taken as CCP, where as microbiological load monitoring as OPRP.

[Erasmo]

Dear Charles,



I have other two questions:



1. Is mandatory to have the lead auditor ISO 22K if I want to do the external audit (like certification body)? I want to be sure because in Romania the external audit is done by lead auditor ISO 9001.

How is in your country?



2. Last year our firm have implemented and certified ISO 22K and there was a big discussion about the OPRP`s and CCP.

What are the practice differences between OPRP’s and CCP?

I read a lot of materials about ISO 22K, but I did not understand very well what the differences in the practice between them.

Please, give me a practice example.



Thank you and all the best!

To your first question:
This is not common but it is possible. If a QMS auditor has Food Safety experience and auditing experience in ISO-15161 he/she can perform ISO-22000 assessment. (this is not the best practice).

[infoiqc]

According to ISO 22003, auditors for ISO 22000 must have:

"The certification body shall ensure that auditors have successfully completed training in
a) audit techniques based on ISO 19011, and
b) relevant FSMS standards (e.g. ISO 22000)."

IRCA and most CBs require a specialized course and exam for ISO 22000.

Gail