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johnmorrison88

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 06:33 PM

I have just moved to San Diego and although I LOVE the food here I prefer to eat all/as much as possible organic food. Does anyone know of good places to buy organic produce, including meats?

In many countries you can get boxes of organic produce delivered to your house each week - does anything like that exist in San Diego?

I also cook alot of international dishes, especially Thai and Vietnamese, Indian etc - are there any places to buy fresh international herbs, fruits and vegetables?


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Posted 14 February 2009 - 11:43 AM

This link might be helpful Natural food delivery
[LINK DELETED]



Simon

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 03:10 PM

A new member asks a dodgy question about home food delivery and by an amazing stroke of luck another new member provides the perfect link. By the way an even more amazing stroke of luck both new members have the same IP Address. :rolleyes:

Good effort. :clap:

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 11:13 AM

Morale Lesson number one: "Generally, dont mess around with Simon... Particularly, dont sneakin' on his forum..." ;)


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Posted 17 February 2009 - 02:48 PM

do you thing they'll deliver to Wales?



Simon

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 09:14 PM

Morale Lesson number one: "Generally, dont mess around with Simon... Particularly, dont sneakin' on his forum..." ;)

The validation process new members have to go through filters out all automated spam that plagues many other forums. And I like to think the moderators here operate a firm but fair and speedy response to other more determined spammers. I’m a big softy really but I make it my duty to keep this place a SPAM FREE ZONE!

do you thing they'll deliver to Wales?

Due to my draconian action I’m afraid we’ll never know.

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:35 AM

Thanks for keeping the spams out! They just don't know when to stop and sometimes, they even come in torrents...

But to change this topic from a spam related issue to one that might benefit a safety forum, I will post an article I've found on the net on Organic Foods.

It’s Organic, but Does That Mean It’s Safer?

MOST of the chicken, fruit and vegetables in Ellen Devlin-Sample’s kitchen are organic. She thinks those foods taste better than their conventional counterparts. And she hopes they are healthier for her children.

Lately, though, she is not so sure.

The national outbreak of salmonella in products with peanuts has been particularly unsettling for shoppers like her who think organic food is safer.

The plants in Texas and Georgia that were sending out contaminated peanut butter and ground peanut products had something else besides rodent infestation, mold and bird droppings. They also had federal organic certification.

“Why is organic peanut butter better than Jif?” said Ms. Devlin-Sample, a nurse practitioner from Pelham, N.Y. “I have no idea. If we’re getting salmonella from peanut butter, all bets are off.”

Although the rules governing organic food require health inspections and pest-management plans, organic certification technically has nothing to do with food safety.

“Because there are some increased health benefits with organics, people extrapolate that it’s safer in terms of pathogens,” said Urvashi Rangan, a senior scientist and policy analyst with Consumers Union, the nonprofit publisher of Consumer Reports. “I wouldn’t necessarily assume it is safer.”

But many people who pay as much as 50 percent more for organic food think it ought to be. The modern organic movement in the United States was started by a handful of counterculture farmers looking to grow food using methods that they believed were better for the land and produced healthier food. It was a culture built on purity and trust that emphasized the relationship between the farmer and the customer.

By 2002, those ideals had been arduously translated into a set of federal organic regulations limiting pesticide use, restricting kinds of animal feed and forbidding dozens of other common agricultural practices.

To determine who would be allowed to use the green and white “certified organic” seal, the Department of Agriculture deputized as official certifiers dozens of organizations, companies and, in some cases, state workers.

These certifiers, then, are paid by the farmers and manufacturers they are inspecting to certify that the standards have been met. Depending on several factors, the fee can be hundreds or thousands of dollars. Manufacturers who buy six or seven organic ingredients to make one product are especially dependent on the web of agents.

If agents do a thorough job, the system can be effective. But sometimes it falls apart.

Texas officials last month fired a state worker who served as a certifier because a plant owned by the Peanut Corporation of America — the company at the center of the salmonella outbreak — was allowed to keep its organic certification although it did not have a state health certificate.

A private certifier took nearly seven months to recommend that the U.S.D.A. revoke the organic certification of the peanut company’s Georgia plant, and then did so only after the company was in the thick of a massive food recall. So far, nearly 3,000 products have been recalled, including popular organic items from companies like Clif Bar and Cascadian Farm. Nine people have died and almost 700 have become ill.

The private certifier, the Organic Crop Improvement Association, sent a notice in July to the peanut company saying it was no longer complying with organic standards, said Jeff See, the association’s executive director. He would not say why his company wanted to pull the certification.

A second notice was sent in September, but it wasn’t until Feb. 4 that the certifier finally told the agriculture department that the company should lose its ability to use the organic label.

Mr. See said the peanut company initially appeared willing to clear up the problems. But he said the company was slow to produce information and then changed the person in charge of the organic certification, further delaying the process.

He said his organization finally decided to recommend suspending the organic certification after salmonella problems at the plant were exposed.

Although certifiers have some discretion in giving organic companies time to fix compliance problems, Barbara C. Robinson, acting director of the agriculture department’s National Organic Program, said her agency is investigating the gap between the first notice of noncompliance and the recommendation that the peanut plant surrender its organic certification.

To emphasize that reporting basic health violations is part of an organic inspector’s job, Ms. Robinson last week issued a directive to the 96 organizations that perform foreign and domestic organic inspections that they are obligated to look beyond pesticide levels and crop management techniques.

Potential health violations like rats — which were reported by federal inspectors and former workers at the Texas and Georgia plants — must be reported to the proper health and safety agency, the directive said.

“For example, while we do not expect organic inspectors to be able to detect salmonella or other pathogens,” Ms. Robinson wrote, “their potential sources should be obvious from such evidence as bird, rodent and other animal feces or other pest infestations.”

Even some certifiers say that while their job is not to assure that food is safe, taking account of health inspections will help consumers.

“It’s a reassurance that they have another set of eyes, and more eyes is always a good thing,” said Jane Baker, director for sales and marketing of California Certified Organic Farmers, a nonprofit certifying organization in Santa Cruz, Calif., and one of the largest and oldest in the country. “But let’s not confuse food safety controls with the organic side of things.”

Organics has grown from an $11 billion business in the United States in 2001 to one that now generates more than $20 billion in sales, so the stakes for farmers, processors and certifiers can be high. But the agency overseeing the certifying process has long been considered underfunded and understaffed. Critics have called the system dysfunctional.

Arthur Harvey, a Maine blueberry farmer who does organic inspections, said agents have an incentive to approve companies that are paying them.

“Certifiers have a considerable financial interest in keeping their clients going,” he said.

Meanwhile, consumers are becoming more skeptical about certification, said Laurie Demeritt, president of the Hartman Group, a market research firm.

Some shoppers want food that was grown locally, harvested from animals that were treated humanely or produced by workers who were paid a fair wage. The organic label doesn’t mean any of that.

“They’re questioning the social values around organics,” Ms. Demeritt said.

The Organic Trade Association, which represents 1,700 organic companies, wants to shore up organic food’s image. This week it’s beginning a $500,000 Web-based campaign on the benefits of organic food with the slogan: “Organic. It’s worth it.”

Supporters of the National Organic Program think additional money in the recent farm bill will help improve its reach.

And great hope is being placed in Kathleen A. Merrigan, director of the agriculture, food and environment program at Tufts University, who was appointed the deputy agriculture secretary last week. Dr. Merrigan helped design the national organic standards, and is seen as a champion of organic farmers and someone who can help clarify and strengthen federal food laws.

Meanwhile, consumers remain perplexed about which food to buy and which labels assure safer and better-tasting food.

Emily Wyckoff, who lives in Buffalo, buys local food and cooks from scratch as much as possible. Although she still buys organic milk and organic peanut butter for her three children, the organic label means less to her these days — especially when it comes to processed food in packages like crackers and cookies.

“I want to care, but you have to draw the line,” she said.

But the line stops when it comes to basic food safety.

Recently, a sign near the Peter Pan and Skippy at her local grocery store declared that those brands were safe from peanut contamination. There was no similar sign near her regular organic brand.

“I bought the national brand,” she said. “Isn’t that funny?”

http://www.nytimes.c...amp;goback=.hom



"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

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Hongyun

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:40 AM

Sorry, the article's kinda lengthy. :oops:

But just curious, how many of you buy organic foods on a daily basis? If it costs alot more but does not provide additional safety measurements compare to your usual food, then what kind of benefits are we talking about?

Less pesticides to trade in for more microbial growth?



"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 07 March 2009 - 04:11 AM

Dear Hongyun,

Interesting topic but my knowlege base is essentially zero. Sounds like a parallel path to the (presumably, officially uncertified) raw milk safety debate ?? :smile:

I deduce you are interpreting that although any presence of synthetic pesticides is an automatic no-no for a declared organic food , a few (thousand?) salmonellae in a ready-to-eat item might be tolerated ??

Presumably "organic foods" do have microbiological and CP specifications to be met for certification purposes, just like any other good "quality" foods :dunno: If not, I will hv a second look at the organic tomatoes I just started eating. No (cheaper) inorganic ones were on sale unfortunately :crying: .


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Posted 07 March 2009 - 08:39 AM

Hi,

Organic product certification can be obtained as per the USDA's National Organic Program (NOP).

we are suppling organic certified spice extracts to our customers


Biss

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 08:40 AM

I deduce you are interpreting that although any presence of synthetic pesticides is an automatic no-no for a declared organic food , a few (thousand?) salmonellae in a ready-to-eat item might be tolerated ??


Sort of. What I meant was, since they do not tolerate the use of pesticides, then they will have to accept the microbial problem caused by “bird, rodent and other animal feces or other pest infestations.” Because there are no pesticides to get rid of the pests that are spreading the sickness.

So, in a way, i guess it's the same as the raw milk safety debate..

---
From Wikipedia:
Organic foods are made according to certain production standards, meaning they are grown without the use of conventional pesticides and artificial fertilizers, free from contamination by human or industrial waste, and processed without irradiation or food additives.[1] If livestock are involved, they must be reared without the routine use of antibiotics and without the use of growth hormones, and generally fed a healthy diet. In most countries, organic produce may not be genetically modified.
---

I do not know if they have a similar system like HACCP to prevent food poisoning. But from Wiki's definition, No pesticides, food additives, irradiation, are allowed, in order to get the "Organic" label. If they have some kind of food safety system, I believe it's gonna fail alot of the microbial testings.

This led me to think that unless you wash your organic foods thoroughly and cook them properly before you eat, you're screwed.

Are there any "Organic" fans out here that might shed some light on how safe is your food? Do you know how they grow, harvest, rare the food/meat to give you the best? :dunno:

P.S.
Charles,

Did you wash your tomatoes good before eating them? :biggrin:


"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 07 March 2009 - 08:49 AM

Hi,

Organic product certification can be obtained as per the USDA's National Organic Program (NOP).

we are suppling organic certified spice extracts to our customers


Hi Biss,

Do you have a CoA for your customers, and how are the specs for microbial compared to your competitors whom are selling non-organic spice extracts?

When you say extracts, you mean oleoresins? Usually, these have to be extracted via a solvents like hexane, IPA, etc. So, even with the use of chemical solvents, it can still be regarded as organic?

Or do you mean the raw materials for your extracts are organic?


"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 07 March 2009 - 12:26 PM

Dear Hongyun,

I did a little searching on the IT over this topic. I now appreciate that, fundamentally, “organic” is a production certification but which is intended (claimed?) to not degrade any safety-related microbiological characteristics relative to non-organic items (nice to know ! :smile: ).
A set of buyer mic.specifications is given in link (1) below, I presume these are identical to the non-organic product limits (no sampling sizes given in link). At least in UK, retail organic, RTE products apear to be microbiologically assessed as per the same standards as non-organic (seems logical, the survey is included below, link (2), although bit old now ).
Nonetheless, seemed to me that no (neutral) consensus has been reached regarding any general relative safety / healthiness of O/nonO products. Not surprising maybe.

Some links –

1. http://www.woolworth...wqa produce.pdf

2. http://www.mindfully...ables-Clean.htm

3. http://www.wisc.edu/...ralOrgFoods.pdf

4. http://www.ifst.org/...organicfood.pdf

5. http://scienceinsoci...-the-extra-cost

6. Attached File  microbial_standards_in_organic_farming_I7A2.pdf   878.43KB   39 downloads

After reading No.6, I washed my tomatoes (again) :biggrin:

Rgds / Charles.C


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Hongyun

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 01:31 PM

Thanks for the enlightenment, Charles!

Certainly learned alot about Organics today. :smile:

No.6 was enough for me to not purchase any organic foods. Not gonna pay more, only to increase the risk of being ill from pathogens, molds, parasites, etc.. Unless I grow them myself! :biggrin:

No.2 did show a good percentage of acceptable microbiological quality... in 2001. Not sure how much's changed compared to now. Especially now, with the e.coli and salmonella cases recently..


Edited by Hongyun, 07 March 2009 - 01:32 PM.


"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 07 March 2009 - 03:04 PM

Dear Hongyun,

IMO the general rule for organic veggies is quite obvious: no chemical hazard, but beware of microbiological hazard. So a company should think twice before accepting an organic veggies as their raw material. If there is no other process that may reduce the micro content, I presume it was a critical material.

As for myself, I am not quite so picky about veggies, as long as it rinsed and prepared with properly of course.


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Posted 07 March 2009 - 03:18 PM

Hi Arya,

Can't agree more with you. Most impt thing is still to wash thoroughly with water (to remove pesticides if non-organic or remove compost/dirt from organic foods) and cook them until fully cooked.

---
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Yes! Can't wait for the 5th! But unfortunately, I don't own a PS3... :crybaby: So I can only download the wallpapers for my PC and HP while reading reviews of the game...


Edited by Hongyun, 08 March 2009 - 02:14 AM.


"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 13 March 2009 - 03:58 AM

Hi Hongyun,


yes, we are manufacturing oleoresins, essentail oils etc.

For organic products we are using organic solvents for extraction eg. Co2,

organic cleaning agents used for cleaning of equipments,

organic certified raw materials are purchased from suppliers etc.


I think the microbial limits are same as the usual products, not sure i have to check with Quality assurance

please see the different standards for your reference ..

Indian National Standards for Organic Products (NSOP)
In 2000, the Government of India released the National Standards for Organic Products (NSOP) under the National Programme for Organic Production (NPOP). It stipulates that inspection and certification by a nationally accredited certification body is mandatory for labeling and selling products as “organic.” A copy of the NSOP is available from www.apeda.com

European Regulation EEC 2092/91
Most relevant for exports to Europe is the European Regulation EEC 2092/91. An amended version of this complex regulation is available on
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/index.htm

IFOAM Basic Standards

Being the mother of organic standards, IFOAM Basic Standards are not standards for certification but standards for standard setting on the national and international levels. They are regularly reviewed and updated in a democratic process by the IFOAM members from all over the world. The latest copy is available from headoffice@ifoam.org

US-NOP standards.

USDA s National Organic Program regulates the organic standards for farm production, wild crop harvesting and handling operation. In order to label or to sell an agricultural product as organic in the U.S., compliance with NOP standards is an indispensable requisite.
http://www.ams.usda....nop/indexIE.htm


Biss

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 09:47 AM

Oh, CO2 extraction... I guess the cost of your oleoresins/essential oils must be alot higher than those using normal solvents...

So, your process is similar to Sandy's? Using SFE to extract your products?



"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 14 March 2009 - 01:33 PM

Dear Biss,

Excellent references.... Surely needful for me coz we're using oleoresins in large quantity. As matter of fact, you are my supplier. Its amazing how people connected just by using the internet. :cool: And its also amazing that we drive the discussion away from the origin topic.... :rolleyes:

Biss, you do use methanol as solvent right? As far as I remember, you declare it on the spec. and COA. Does it mean that CO2 only used for organic product? What's the different?


Regards,


Arya

To Hongyun: Dont worry, I play the 4th in PC, surely the 5th will be made for PC too. Although I will need a significant upgrade on my PC :yikes:


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Posted 14 March 2009 - 02:50 PM

Hi Arya,

Maybe the oleoresins you purchased are of the non-organic origin?

CO2 is a by product of brewing, so, can consider natural/organic?

But not sure of methanol, though the NPOP from the link states that:

3.4.4.2.
Extraction shall only take place with water, ethanol, plant and animal oils,
vinegar, carbon dioxide, nitrogen or carboxylic acids. These shall be of food
grade quality, appropriate for the purpose.


Maybe Biss can explain in more details on organic status of Methanol?

I think sometimes Methanol is added together with CO2 as a co-solvent for better extraction. Maybe due to Halal issue, cannot use ethanol?


"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 15 March 2009 - 10:37 AM

Can someone suggest an apt title for this thread and I will change it.


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Posted 15 March 2009 - 03:48 PM

Can someone suggest an apt title for this thread and I will change it.


Ah, yes... my bad. I got the topic derailed...

Maybe we can use the title of the article I found on the net?

"It’s Organic, but Does That Mean It’s Safer?"


"World Community Grid made it possible for us to analyze in one day the number of specimens that would take approximately 130 years to complete using a traditional computer."

- Dr. David J. Foran, professor and lead researcher at The Cancer Institute of New Jersey, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.




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Posted 15 March 2009 - 08:08 PM

Ah, yes... my bad. I got the topic derailed...

Maybe we can use the title of the article I found on the net?

"It’s Organic, but Does That Mean It’s Safer?"

Sounds good to me Hongyun. :smile:

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:08 PM

Hi Hongyun!
Please forgive my ignorance, but why do you only wash your produce with water? No soap?
In my country, a rule of thumb is that you want to wash all your produce with water and soap. Close to my home town there´s an area that is well known for its vegetable production. I don´t buy any vegetables from them though, because they´re also known for using water from a river that receives sewage from all the towns that it goes through and for using large amounts of pesticides and fertilizers. They get impressive sized vegetables, but there is no way I want to have microbiological and chemical risks in my kitchen.
I buy at the local market and I think most vegetables are organic, mostly because farmers don´t have the money to buy pesticides. I think it´s easier to take care of the microbiological factor, since most vegetables are cooked, than of the chemical factor.



Hongyun

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 12:40 AM

Hi MRios,

I know that these vegetable soaps are used to wash away the chemicals, but it's not very common, at least I think in Singapore, to use them.

All import of vegetables passes through the checking from AVA and are certified that they do not contain prohibited pesticides or exceed any amount of maximum allowed limit.

So, I guess Singapore's pretty safe when it comes to food. :)

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