21 replies to this topic

[mind over matter]

Our subsidiary’s products are processed fruits and don’t contain meats or no contact with any meat products. Customer requires them to comply with HALAL certification. They are confused if they have to comply with this kind of requirement or not.

What would you advice? Thanks

Edited by mind over matter, 01 March 2011 - 01:17 AM.

[Simon]

BUMP for Mind Over matter.

[D-D]

Halal goes beyond meat and covers things like purity and especially intoxicants (alcohol). Best have a word with your local Halal Authority for a better explanation and understanding of requirements; should not be too difficult to comply.

[GMO]

For some religions the mode and surroundings of food processing are important according to religious laws they believe in. I used to work in confectionery and have inspections for kosher certification for example. This was because some confectionery is polished with beeswax (which is not kosher). Similarly they may wish to look at the use of the plant including whether alcohol is used in hand sanitisation (I think there's another thread on this btw) and in any waxes on the products as that would be harem.

I understand this might be "bizarre" to you and seem like "superstition". I am an atheist so it's not something I believe in, however, other people do including people on this forum and I don't think I have any right to impose my beliefs on anyone else. You might be able to get a lot of useful information from people who follow halal food laws on here and personally I would word things a little differently! I'm sure you don't mean offence but that's how the question could be interpreted.

[mind over matter]

You might be able to get a lot of useful information from people who follow halal food laws on here and personally I would word things a little differently! I'm sure you don't mean offence but that's how the question could be interpreted.

My apology for my wordings. I also want to be treated in a way that is in any way respectful.

[GMO]

My apology for my wordings. I also want to be treated in a way that is in any way respectful.

I was sure it was just a language issue but I was wanting to make sure you weren't putting other people off posting!

[Simon]

I changed the title to be more descriptive and less controversial.

[Zeeshan]

Our subsidiary’s products are processed fruits and don’t contain meats or no contact with any meat products. Customer requires them to comply with HALAL certification. They are confused if they have to comply with this kind of requirement or not.

What would you advice? Thanks

It would help us to assist you more if you elaborate the processing steps involved. As already explained here, the claim for halal is not only concerned with meat. A product claimed to be halal need to fulfill following mandatory conditions.

1- No direct or indirect use of totally Haram (unlawful as per Islam) or Mashbooh (suspected) ingredients. (for more information see www.codexalimentarius.net/download/standards/352/CXG_024e.pdf )
2- No cross contamination of Haram and Halal. Separate processing of Halal and Haram/Mashbooh products/ingredients.
3- Hygiene (Cleaning and sanitation, personal hygiene etc.).

Regards:
M.Zeeshan.

[mind over matter]

It would help us to assist you more if you elaborate the processing steps involved.

Please refer to post #22 of this thread link.

[Zeeshan]

Our subsidiary’s products are processed fruits and don’t contain meats or no contact with any meat products. Customer requires them to comply with HALAL certification. They are confused if they have to comply with this kind of requirement or not.

What would you advice? Thanks

It would help us to assist you more if you elaborate the processing steps involved. As already explained here, the claim for halal is not only concerned with meat. A product claimed to be halal need to fulfill following mandatory conditions.

1- No direct or indirect use of totally Haram (unlawful as per Islam) or Mashbooh (suspected) ingredients. (for more information see www.codexalimentarius.net/download/standards/352/CXG_024e.pdf )
2- No cross contamination of Haram and Halal. Separate processing of Halal and Haram/Mashbooh products/ingredients.
3- Hygiene (Cleaning and sanitation, personal hygiene etc.).

Regards:
M.Zeeshan.

Please refer to post #22 of this thread link.

Me and my colleague (a food technologist) have reviewed your process flow diagram and associated documents. Before jumping towards the review results I would like to highlight some other points.

1- It seems after reviewing your process diagram that there are concerns over Halal issues, therefore if your customer requires your product to comply with HALAL certification then you have literally two options. (1) Satisfy your customer by giving justifications over halal concerns. (2) Get your system assessed/certified by any authentic Islamic Scholar (IS) or Halal Certification Body (HCBs).
2- I have missed explanation of two points in the list of mandatory conditions required for a product claimed to be halal.
(a) Guiding principle of claiming an ingredient/practice as Halal/Haram is as follows:
Any ingredient or element of ingredient which is harmful for human health or spirit in short or long term is haram. That elements and some
obvious carriers of those elements are defined in Quran. Islamic Scholars of diffferent School of thoughts have compiled a list of elements and
their sources which are halal and haram. Besides this, some cases are very interesting which surely make a halal item Haram. For example your
have processed a haram item over a surface, clean the surface with ordinary cleaning procedure and processed a halal item over it. Besides food
safety issues, there would be severe Halal issues at this step due to chances of Halal-Haram Cross Contamination. Another example is any food
contact surface, especially your primary packaging material. If that material is made of any haram/suspected ingredient, that may become a halal
concern.

(b) Some IS or HCBs have a concern over integrity of an ingredient. A so-called halal ingredient could have a concern if it is grown
up and get nutrition with haram source or there are chances of having some intoxicants elements in the ingredient. For examples, if we get
authentic information that a hen is fed up with haram feed, then that hen will be haram even it is slaughtered as per Islamic Code of Practices. Or,
if there are chances that a fruit / vegetable may have intoxicant elements then that fruit itself become a Halal concern.

Now comes to the outcome of the review of your documents:

1- First and most important thing, you must be sure that your fruits and all your ingredients (used in Mixing Step) are Halal. Some fruits may have some concerns having intoxicant elements such as Durian. [Uncooked durian seeds are toxic due to cyclopropene fatty acids and should not be ingested.^[42] .a study by the University of Tsukuba finds the fruit's high sulphur content caused the body to inhibit the activity of aldehyde dehydrogenase, causing a 70% reduction of the ability to clear toxins from the body.^[54] . Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian]

2- It may be a halal concern that what method you are using for Ripening. If your are using some chemicals, then those chemical should be assured as halal.

3- Your sanitizing chemicals may become a halal concern as these may contain alcohol or any intoxicant element. Some Halal Standards (I am not 100% sure about this) have set an allowable limit for residual suspected/unavoidable haram elements in the food.

4- Your packaging may become a halal concern if you are using waxing at food contact side or the inner most layer is made up any haram/suspected material.

5- Your peeling process may become a halal concern if your are using any chemical during process.

The above stated point of views are solely based on personal considerations. We are not the expert or Authentic Islamic Scholar. Therefore it is advised that do not legally claim your products as Halal until and unless you get that products assured/certified as Halal.

For more authentic information or any query you may visit following websites:

http://www.halal.gov.my/v2/
http://www.ifanca.org/index.php
http://www.sanha.co.za/a/index.php

Regards:
M.Zeeshan.

[mind over matter]

thank you very much for your help. As Simon said, “That level of support is above and beyond the normal, you deserve a medal Zeeshan”

I really appreciate your efforts. Someday I hope to be a little like you...

Thank very much to your colleague as well.
I’d like to give you and your colleague a platinum.

Edited by mind over matter, 04 March 2011 - 07:49 AM.

[Zeeshan]

Dear mind over matter,

Thanks for compliments!

Please let us know what would be your next step in dealing with your customer?

Regards:
M.Zeeshan

[J. Smith]

Our subsidiary’s products are processed fruits and don’t contain meats or no contact with any meat products. Customer requires them to comply with HALAL certification. They are confused if they have to comply with this kind of requirement or not.

What would you advice? Thanks

Good day you all,

My name is Jameel. I'm a System administrator for an IFS/BRC certified Fish processing company. I also have 11 years experience in the meat processing industry and five years experience in the confectionary and culinary industry in our country. I'm muslim and do Halal auditing for Halal certifying bodies due to my expertise and experiences in the field. I'm a moderate yet a fundamentalist.

In our opinion and the opinion of the World Halal Council is the following. Any and everything on this earth is Halal (/lawfull/permissible) except when it is contaminated with that which is Haram/unlawfull prescribed in the Qur'an /and Shariah (Islamic Law). It is as easy as that. Fish, Fruit and water is Halal unless a substance makes it non-Halal.

[HPG]

Our subsidiary’s products are processed fruits and don’t contain meats or no contact with any meat products. Customer requires them to comply with HALAL certification. They are confused if they have to comply with this kind of requirement or not.

What would you advice? Thanks

Dear MOM,

It's better to ask your local authority for Halal Certification about any requirements needed.
For example, if you use any ingredients besides fruits, i.e food additives, it's best to ask for Halal Certification for this ingredient.
and it's better to know about Approved Foreign Halal Certification Body. Because sometimes, not all Halal certification body are approved by local authority.

Regards,
Hadi

[Dr Ajay Shah]

I agree with the comments made by HPG above.

[Charles Chew]

Zeeshan, an interesting piece and I enjoyed reading though your comments. IMO, the way fruits are grown, harvested and packed is no longer what it used to be where one can claim everything (except the outright Haram) is Halal. In fact, it should now be read as everything is Haram unless scientifically proven to be Halal. And, thankful to GMO for bring out the issue of beewax coating which is very relevant in this case. I am currently following the Indonesian Halal Assurance System approach which requires a "Haram Hazard Analysis" to be conducted. I believe Indonesia Halal Authority has got it right and should be considered a market leader in Halal certification.

[HPG]

Dear all,
Is there any global / international standard for Halal Assurance System?
I want to know it since next month there will be a Halal Training from Indonesian Council of Ulama (ICU / MUI) at my factory.

Regards,
Hadi

[Zeeshan]

Dear Charles Chew,

Nice to see and interact with you after so long .

In fact, it should now be read as everything is Haram unless scientifically proven to be Halal.

I am currently following the Indonesian Halal Assurance System approach which requires a "Haram Hazard Analysis" to be conducted. I believe Indonesia Halal Authority has got it right and should be considered a market leader in Halal certification.

Your above comments raised some questions in my mind.

Whether by stating "scientifically proven" you mean "Proven by the use of any scientific approach such as logical thinking" or you specifically mean "proven by inspections and testing activities". IMO for many cases simple logical reasoning or justification is acceptable for halal assurance.

What major differences you have assessed after comparing Indonesian Halal Assurance System approach with other approaches especially Malaysian Halal?

What do you think OIC and IHI are not moving ahead instead of using a huge and strong platform?

Regards:
M.Zeeshan.

[Charles Chew]

Hello Zeeshan
Apologies for not responding to this thread earlier. Been busy.

IMO for many cases simple logical reasoning or justification is acceptable for halal assurance

I am not sure if the simple logic approach can still be applied given the complicated structure of how processed food are manufactured today not forgetting the huge number of potentially Haram Nano ingredients being used at most times w/o the consumers being aware of it or when scientific testing equipment is not even sensitive enough to detect these Haram Nano materials.

Take the case of Chinese melamine-tainted milk as an example. The product was probably certified Halal when in fact it was Haram. If the taint was not detected, I believe this Haram product would continue to be consumed as Halal. Again, is Melamine a Haram ingredient when it is present in minute amount in many substances which does not cause harm http://www.fda.gov/N...s/ucm179005.htm

The food world is getting complicated and complex. I am sure Kosher has the same set of problems as Halal. However, to the core issue, I totally agree with J. Smith on his view -

Fish, Fruit and water is Halal unless a substance makes it non-Halal.

That substance or substances is very real in today's world.

[Zeeshan]

Hello Zeeshan
Apologies for not responding to this thread earlier. Been busy. I am not sure if the simple logic approach can still be applied given the complicated structure of how processed food are manufactured today not forgetting the huge number of potentially Haram Nano ingredients being used at most times w/o the consumers being aware of it or when scientific testing equipment is not even sensitive enough to detect these Haram Nano materials.

Take the case of Chinese melamine-tainted milk as an example. The product was probably certified Halal when in fact it was Haram. If the taint was not detected, I believe this Haram product would continue to be consumed as Halal. Again, is Melamine a Haram ingredient when it is present in minute amount in many substances which does not cause harm http://www.fda.gov/N...s/ucm179005.htm

The food world is getting complicated and complex. I am sure Kosher has the same set of problems as Halal. However, to the core issue, I totally agree with J. Smith on his view - That substance or substances is very real in today's world.

Dear Charles!

I meant to say "IMO for many cases simple logical reasoning or justification is acceptable for halal assurance" is that in cases where we can do logical reasoning we should not make the things complicated. In a situation where we are in a authoritative position to decide about a Halal Claim and we find all things logically acceptable than we should have no reason to scientifically do further investigations and expensive testing.

IMO, Halal claim is a religious responsibility. You can not monitor all the items all the time. That's why it is usually required to have a Muslim practitioner at producing or processing facility. If I would be a Halal Auditor for a food processing facility and I find source of an ingredient that is halal certified from an authentic Certification Body, then I have no reason to further investigate or test that product. Obviously, for some food ingredients for which source is doubtful (mashbooh material), I have to do testing and investigations to get assurance that if that are from halal source or not but that testing and investigations does not 100% gureetee that material is haram or halal.

There are so many challenges, as highlighted by you:

1) Complicated structure of how processed food are manufactured today .

2) Huge number of potentially Haram Nano ingredients being used at most times w/o the consumers being aware of it.

3) Scientific testing equipment is not even sensitive enough to detect these Haram Nano materials.

4) Manufacturers are transferring their expenses to consumer due to expensive halal certification.

5) Due to lack of any strong authoritative body there exist lot of confusions about Halal assurance concept and low confidence level both at manufacturer and consumer side.

To counter above and many more challenges, we only have two solutions. One is to leave all commercially processed food items that even claimed as Halal or second is to do as much care as authentic Islamic teachings reveal. IMO, for this type of situation Islam has given a golden principle: Accept what is just according to prescribed shariah and leave what is doubtful. If I am normal Islamic practitioner and my mind and soul is agreeing that since manufacture is claiming the product as halal then there is no need to have that product halal certified because halal certification does not give 100% surety that that product is HALAL. According to shariah and science there are so many things around us which are continuously aiming to harm us. Even many things are hidden from our naked eyes. Even many pathogens are inside our body that are in dormant state and no one knows when they become active. That's why almost every religion teach to ask protection of God before doing any thing. Sorry if someone felt that I am preaching some religion here. I just want to clarify my point of view that the Halal Certification concept has become so complicated, expensive and theoretical that many small organizations and ultimately consumers are confused and burdened to pay more for halal certified products. All this has become so commercial instead of serving any body. I must say, every thing is halal if it is earned, processed and eaten as per shariah.

Regards:
M.Zeeshan

Edited by Zeeshan, 05 May 2011 - 10:49 AM.

[HPG]

Dear Charles!

I meant to say "IMO for many cases simple logical reasoning or justification is acceptable for halal assurance" is that in cases where we can do logical reasoning we should not make the things complicated. In a situation where we are in a authoritative position to decide about a Halal Claim and we find all things logically acceptable than we should have no reason to scientifically do further investigations and expensive testing.

IMO, Halal claim is a religious responsibility. You can not monitor all the items all the time. That's why it is usually required to have a Muslim practitioner at producing or processing facility. If I would be a Halal Auditor for a meat processor and I personally see the slaughtering process as per shariah, I should not go for meat testing or if I would be a Halal Auditor for a food processing facility and I found source of an ingredient halal certified from an authentic Certification Body, then I have no reason to further investigate or test that product. Obviously, for some food ingredients (mashbooh), I have to do testing and investigations to get assurance that if that are from halal source or not.

There are so many challenges, as highlighted by you:

1) Complicated structure of how processed food are manufactured today .

2) Huge number of potentially Haram Nano ingredients being used at most times w/o the consumers being aware of it.

3) Scientific testing equipment is not even sensitive enough to detect these Haram Nano materials.

4) Manufacturers are transferring their expenses to consumer due to expensive halal certification.

5) Due to lack of any strong authoritative body there exist lot of confusions about Halal assurance concept and low confidence level both at manufacturer and consumer side.

To counter above and many more challenges, we only have two solutions. One is to leave all commercially processed food items that even claimed as Halal or second is to do as much care as authentic Islamic teachings reveal. IMO, for this type of situation Islam has given a golden principle: Accept what is just according to prescribed shariah and leave what is doubtful. If I am normal Islamic practitioner and my mind and soul is agreeing that since manufacture is claiming the product as halal then there is no need to have that product halal certified because halal certification does not give 100% surety that that product is HALAL. According to shariah and science there are so many things around us which are continuously aiming to harm us. Even many things are hidden from our naked eyes. Even many pathogens are inside our body that are in dormant state and no one knows when they become active. That's why almost every religion teach to ask protection of God before doing any thing. Sorry if someone felt that I am preaching some religion here. I just want to clarify my point of view that the Halal Certification concept has become so complicated, expensive and theoretical that many small organizations and ultimately consumers are confused and burdened to pay more for halal certified products. All this has become so commercial instead of serving any body. I must say, every thing is halal if it is earned, processed and eaten as per shariah.

Regards:
M.Zeeshan

Dear Zeeshan,
Good Job. I really enjoy reading your comment.

When the first time I've read the Halal Guidelines from Indonesian Council of Ulama, I think it's difficult to implement.
But after I've attended Halal training, it's become more clear about Halal and how to implement that

Regards,
Hadi

Edited by HPG, 05 May 2011 - 06:51 AM.

[Charles Chew]

Hi Zeeshan,

I just want to clarify my point of view that the Halal Certification concept has become so complicated, expensive and theoretical that many small organizations and ultimately consumers are confused and burdened to pay more for halal certified products.

Halal certification in some countries IMO may have gotten more political with the embediment of commercial interest within it.

halal certification does not give 100% surety that that product is HALAL.

- I agree

Obviously, for some food ingredients (mashbooh), I have to do testing and investigations to get assurance that if that are from halal source or not.

- A major concern if commercial viability for reasonable Halal certification cost is to be maintained due to increasing uncertainty in the Halal status of "mashbooh ingredient materials". Too many porcine / alcohol residue testing will be conducted rendering commerical Halal concept difficult to implement.

OIC needs to get their Halal harmonization mechanics right even though there are many interpretation issues due to different "Mazhabs" to deal with. Right now, each country appears to be pretty much on their own and when OIC meets agains, the whole issues of global harmonization is revived. I might be wrong with my views on OIC and if so please correct me.

Finally, since the last aborted trip (went to NZ instead), I think it is very likely that I would coming to Karachi some time in July. Lets see how it goes.be

Regadrs
Charles